Finite training plateau's

judomick

Just finished training, and was pondering the following question although the answer seems obvious to me im sure you guys have conflicting views on the following....Doyou think its possible for someone to reach a certain level and not progress beyond that level even if they continue training, my thinking is that some people just dont seem to "get it" and never seem to progress even though they train regularly also there are people
whom rarely train and do progress, is it all down to training methods or does the person become a factor, and my main point,is there a ceiling individuals can reach at whichtheir progress plateaus finitely?

dlofnep

I think you'll forever progress so long as you make the effort.. Later on in your career when you pretty much have perfected everything, at that stage you'll still be progressing, but very slowly. Refining small details in technique and what not.

spiral

Mick I think it happens to everyone at some stage. maybe ya(not you) just need to strip down the amount of stuff yer doin or go deeper into one thing for a while or your just not honest about how much time you devote to cardio or sparring or your diet isnt the best. Can be any amount of things
I think that good training partners are a great help
Some people like to just train and maybe dont particularly think about what they are doing.
Others are just naturally more gifted
I dont think to answer your main point that anyone has all the aspects right and couldnt make good improvements to some part of their training .
If all else fails theirs drugs

TwoKingMick

Who are you talking about mick? Are we going to have to go vale tudo rules next week?

In all seriousness, i have seen many people who progress at a snails pace, you're right, there are people out there who just don't seem to "get it".But maybe they don't want to, had you considered that?

john kavanagh

ego leads to measurement, measurement leads to fear, fear leads to anger...

dlofnep

john kavanagh wrote:

ego leads to measurement, measurement leads to fear, fear leads to anger...

:eek:

judomick

im not talkin about myself, my progression is ok im happy with it (id be happier if i could stop twokingmick guillotining me ) its just there are those out there that seem to train alot but dont really progress just wonderin if anyone had a point of view that had'nt ocurred to me, yes i have an ego john everyone knows it , and if they dont want to progress why do they do it, surely the fun is in progression?

Cabelo

I reckon (after very much thought) that it's the same with any skill. At any given time you're either progressing or you're regressing. Without practice you will get worse, with any dedicated practice you are getting better. It is a very natural thing to progress very slowly for a long time and suddenly realise things.

It happens all the time; it's about how your mind works with your body and vice versa aswell as how you learn things. Ideas can be hard to grasp for a long time until they hit you very suddenly and open up tonnes. Other time you've got it all together and your body is still catching up.

uberpixie

judomick wrote:

im not talkin about myself, my progression is ok im happy with it (id be happier if i could stop twokingmick guillotining me ) its just there are those out there that seem to train alot but dont really progress just wonderin if anyone had a point of view that had'nt ocurred to me, yes i have an ego john everyone knows it , and if they dont want to progress why do they do it, surely the fun is in progression?

Well my friend Dave and myself started TKD this year and Dave was one of the weakest in the class. It took him a lot longer to get a handle on the basic techniques and patterns in comparison to the rest of us.

While his progression was slower, he still got enjoyment out of the training. He was in fact far more dedicated to the training than myself.

He was just happy that he had made some progress. He didn't care how good he was in comparison to other people. He was happy in the knowledge that he was making some improvment in himself.

Tbh sometimes the fact that a style of fighting just does not suit someone either due to their mindset or their physical attributes.

Someone times the fact that someone never played much sports when they were kids will slow down their progression as they just haven't developed balance/spacial awareness etc as well as someone who has played sport.

Just because someone is not as good as everyone else doesn't mean it's any less worth while for them. Sometimes having to train harder than everyone else to reach their level makes it worth while.

pma-ire

Martial Arts are many things to as many people.

Remember to the vast majority MA is a past-time. Even if you are hardcore competition training, it's still a past-time. It also depends on your enviroment in the outside world like work, family and the likes.

You get out what you put in. It's like a marathon, some get to the finish line faster than others. But you can't say that the person that walked the marthon did not get any enjoyment from the experience

It's when the walkers get gold medels and get a false sence of there level of achivement that the trouble starts

john kavanagh

"and if they dont want to progress why do they do it..."

"While his progression was slower, he still got enjoyment out of the training."


"...surely the fun is in progression?"

progression as measured against whom?


ALL of our bodies eventually slow down and fall apart...

soma

Does anyone else suspect that JK is making a play for the "Mr Miyagi" role on this board..?

john kavanagh

i'd prefer a Yoda comparrison, his training methods were a lot more realistic

Colm_OReilly

JudoMick,

Definitely people reach a plateau. Just look at high performance athletes. They have programs tailored to their needs, and lives devoted to excellence in their chosen field. Yet we can't all run 100m in under 10 seconds, or perform the perfect rings routine.

Eventually we all reach a plateau. Now for the vast majority of us it won't be our absolute plateau, as we've other factors in our life beyond our sport.

Also people do have different levels of physical literacy and physical awareness (or a sort of physical IQ) where their bodies will only develop at such a rate and adapt to a stimulus to a certain degree. This is the purely physical side of growth in a sport. We all pretty much know the attitude side of learning and training.

As for joy in progression: I think the vast majority of people aren't in the gym for anything other than the joy in physical movement. If we compare it to Astro Turf friendlies. The skill level required to just play soccer is quite low, and this is one of the reasons for its popularity. The skill level required just to play jitz, wrestling, or boxing is a lot higher, and so you need a heck of a lot more coaching just to be able to play with someone else in these activities. The people who play Astro Turf once a week enjoy the social element and the physical activity and aren't looking to improve for the most part. The people who come down and roll for a bit are in all likelihood the same. It's just something they enjoy doing.

John I think it's very easy to say don't measure yourself. But we are in a culture that is all about measurement and idolises success in sport. To give an example after my first road race I was asked how I did. I explained how I felt at various points during the race and how I felt afterwards. Invariably the follow up question was what time I had completed in. When I asked people how they did I usually just got their time. I had to ask further questions to see if they were happy with it, was that their goal etc.

Now I agree with you that it's probably a healthier option not to measure yourself against others, or indeed against yourself, but people are going to do it, and I've found telling them not to can be infuriating for some people.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

john kavanagh

"Now I agree with you that it's probably a healthier option not to measure yourself against others, or indeed against yourself, but people are going to do it"

agreed....but i do think its important to remember that our measurement against others (and against ourselves) will, in the natural progress of things, eventually decline so for someone who finds the fun is in progression - i think they are setting themselves up to be unhappy if thats the ONLY source of fun they get from training

"and I've found telling them not to can be infuriating for some people."

i'd have to ask them why are they 'infuriatated' by a simple truth? could it be that ego leads to measurement, measurement leads to fear, fear leads to anger..

judomick

excellent reply Mr.O'reilly exactly the type of reply i was after you've won a judomick limited edition t-shirt!,
john do you think the force is hidden in people and waiting to be unlocked or can it be learned?

Colm_OReilly

i think they are setting themselves up to be unhappy if thats the ONLY source of fun they get from training

Good point John.

That post reminded me of a conversation The Shane once had with our wrestling coach in UCD a few years back.

Shane: Does anybody just wrestle for fun?

Coach (not fully understanding): Wrestling is fun man, it's serious, but it is fun.

Shane: Yeah, but does anybody just wrestle because they enjoy it, and not to make varsity and compete?

Coach: What? Why would anyone do that?

With that in mind I'm guessing it's those people who'll get the most infuriated at the measurement argument even though they'll probably need it the most.

Colm

Colm_OReilly

judomick wrote:

excellent reply Mr.O'reilly exactly the type of reply i was after you've won a judomick limited edition t-shirt!,
john do you think the force is hidden in people and waiting to be unlocked or can it be learned?

Awesome! I sure hope it's your photo with a big cheesy grin and you giving the two thumbs up!

john kavanagh

now i'm off to the BTT summer camp to meaure myself against Sperry and Minotauro

Roper

john kavanagh wrote:

now i'm off to the BTT summer camp to meaure myself against Sperry and Minotauro

I wouldn't bother, they're easily taller than you.....
That was what you meant right?

As regards the serious question,

If the only enjoyment you get out of training is progression, I think you're heading for a serious letdown once you plateau, or worse still, get slower as you get older. Sure, knowing you're getting better is nice, but the method has to be enjoyed too, not just the results I reckon.

I may be accused of hauling this back over familiar territory but so long as we're talking about progression=enjoyment, I think a good deal of this in MA is on account of unrealistic grading systems. eg. I am a yellow belt in two months I will be an orange belt as long as I learn x and y pattern. Often this takes place without a noticable improvement in performance or ability. People then focus on this external recognition of "progression" and it becomes the focus, rather than the consequence, of their training.