Omaha hand: getting out of it in the side pot

RoundTower

Fitz €50 game. I have KQ77 single suited in the cutoff seat. There is a blind raise, and a reraise to €20, and I call. 6 of us see the flop, including the button. Pot is €120.

Flop 765, 2 clubs. So I have top set, but no clubs. BB (tight) bets €60 all in immediately. 3 players fold, including the initial raiser, and there is a call on my right (good aggressive player, probably wins, but too loose, doing badly today). The button does not have much money left, but the caller has another €220 or so behind. I have more than that.

How do you play this, and why?

RoundTower

I'm 90% certain I'm behind.

Lafortezza

So on the flop the pot is €120, BB bets all-in for €60, 3 folds, 1 caller who has €220 left, there's 1 player behind you with not much money left.
You're being asked for €60 for a pot of €180? Definitely an auto-call. If the caller with €220 had the nut straight he might re-raise to get any flush draws out.

You could play passively and try to see a cheap river and hop the board pairs along the way, or you could raise the flop now against the guy with money left, maybe he has bare clubs + overpair, depending on your read of him. How much money have you left?

DapperGent

RoundTower wrote:

Fitz €50 game. I have KQ77 single suited in the cutoff seat. There is a blind raise, and a reraise to €20, and I call. 6 of us see the flop, including the button. Pot is €120.

Flop 765, 2 clubs. So I have top set, but no clubs. BB (tight) bets €60 all in immediately. 3 players fold, including the initial raiser, and there is a call on my right (good aggressive player, probably wins, but too loose, doing badly today). The button does not have much money left, but the caller has another €220 or so behind. I have more than that.

How do you play this, and why?

This is an interesting situation.

You seem to be nearly certain that the BB has a straight and therefore that you need the board to pair to win the hand. I think given the loose player's range of hands to call there - to my mind the two undersets, nut or non-nut flush draws, non-nut straights and perhaps even straight draws - that you want him in the hand and you want all of his money in the middle on the flop.

You can only make a 2/3 bot bet really so that will tempt him to call with a lot of hands. If you think putting him all will scare him off too easily then make it €100 more or so on the flop this might even tempt the shortstack on the button if he has any piece of it. Personally I'm unconcerned about giving good odds to draws as you're figuring that you need to hit to win half the pot anyway. You really really don't want to pot it and have him fold a King high flush draw on the flop. You'd hate him to fold a set of 5s.

I probably would have figured him for a flush draw at the time and thoughtlessly potted it. I think the better play is to keep him in the hand and tease his stack out of him. You know you need the board to pair to win a €300 pot, there's no reason not to break the traditional aggressive omaha rules to try to create a €440 pot that you're more of a favourite for, I don't think potting it is terrible by any means but even a very loose player is folding a Q high flush draw there which you don't want.

Lafortezza

jtsuited wrote:

i imagine you're ahead so in they go. you may be outdrawn but such is omaha

Why would you delete your post?

RoundTower

OK, here's the way I looked at it.

I am almost certainly behind in the main pot which will contain €300 if I call or raise. Of course I can't fold, however, because of the huge pot odds I will be getting.

What does the other player have though? I am almost certain he does not have the same nut straight, or he would have raised. By raising I represent the nut straight, and he will probably fold a smaller straight figuring he is drawing dead. If he has clubs, or better trips, he will probably call getting 2:1 on his money and figuring he is drawing live. So I can get rid of the only hand that is ahead of me, and get a call from any hand that is behind me, right?

I raised the maximum, putting him all in. In fact he had one of the only hands I didn't want him to have.

RoundTower

DapperGent wrote:

Personally I'm unconcerned about giving good odds to draws as you're figuring that you need to hit to win half the pot anyway. You really really don't want to pot it and have him fold a King high flush draw on the flop.
...
I don't think potting it is terrible by any means but even a very loose player is folding a Q high flush draw there which you don't want.

I know nobody's still interested in this thread, but I forgot to mention this before:

I do want him to fold his Q high flush draw. If his draw is live he is getting about 2.4:1 on his money and should call. Therefore I want him to fold. Because of the stack sizes, a small raise is also bad in this case, because he can call and set me in if a club hits on 4th street, when I will have to call.

DapperGent

RoundTower wrote:

I know nobody's still interested in this thread, but I forgot to mention this before:

I do want him to fold his Q high flush draw. If his draw is live he is getting about 2.4:1 on his money and should call. Therefore I want him to fold. Because of the stack sizes, a small raise is also bad in this case, because he can call and set me in if a club hits on 4th street, when I will have to call.

No you don't.

Think of it this way: you call €60 to with a chance to win a €300 pot getting more than the correct pot odds. You need to hit to win this pot as far as you know. Then you go about creating a second pot which given your opponents hand range you're already ahead in. Say he has a nut flush draw, the pot between the two of you currently stands at €0 but you're ahead and are likely to stay ahead, every bit of cash he puts into the pot is good for you. The beauty of the situation is is that you can make it €50 or €100 and he has to call to retain an interest in the main pot.

This second pot between the two of you is terrible for him (if he has a flush draw) becuase it has nothing it in before you start betting (he's not going to win your bet plus his pet plus the middle if he hits - 2:1 + implied - he's getting 1:1 + implied). The only situation in which you don't want him calling any of your bets is if he has a straight already becuase then you're in the bad situation of calling money into a pot of €0 with no real implied odds when you're behind. The reason why all this is great for you is that you have no real motivation to make him fold as he's no threat to you for the main pot you need a house to win this so him making a flush makes no difference to you at all as far as the mainpot is concerned.

Every bit of cash he puts in the pot (this is all presuming he has a flush draw) is free money for you or given his odds about 70% of every €1 he puts in the pot is yours and he's forced to do it becuase he knows he's drawing to the nuts for the main pot. The reason I would raise small is to kept him in should he have a not nut flush draw, I don't want him to be afraid that I have a nut flush draw and that he's drawing dead.

The guy holding a flush draw to your topset is in a terrible terrible fúcking situation and there is no way in any world you want him to fold.

RoundTower

DapperGent wrote:

No you don't.

Think of it this way: you call €60 to with a chance to win a €300 pot getting more than the correct pot odds. You need to hit to win this pot as far as you know. Then you go about creating a second pot which given your opponents hand range you're already ahead in. Say he has a nut flush draw, the pot between the two of you currently stands at €0 but you're ahead and are likely to stay ahead, every bit of cash he puts into the pot is good for you. The beauty of the situation is is that you can make it €50 or €100 and he has to call to retain an interest in the main pot.

This second pot between the two of you is terrible for him (if he has a flush draw) becuase it has nothing it in before you start betting (he's not going to win your bet plus his pet plus the middle if he hits - 2:1 + implied - he's getting 1:1 + implied). The only situation in which you don't want him calling any of your bets is if he has a straight already becuase then you're in the bad situation of calling money into a pot of €0 with no real implied odds when you're behind. The reason why all this is great for you is that you have no real motivation to make him fold as he's no threat to you for the main pot you need a house to win this so him making a flush makes no difference to you at all as far as the mainpot is concerned.

Every bit of cash he puts in the pot (this is all presuming he has a flush draw) is free money for you or given his odds about 70% of every €1 he puts in the pot is yours and he's forced to do it becuase he knows he's drawing to the nuts for the main pot. The reason I would raise small is to kept him in should he have a not nut flush draw, I don't want him to be afraid that I have a nut flush draw and that he's drawing dead.

The guy holding a flush draw to your topset is in a terrible terrible fúcking situation and there is no way in any world you want him to fold.

Doh. This is what I meant when I made the original post, but you explained it an awful lot better.

I changed my mind then, and suddenly thought I wanted the flush draw out, but of course the player who really wants him out is the all-in player.

He actually had the worst hand possible from my point of view - the small straight with a non-nut flush draw. He thought about it and called.