Thinking of buying a site

Beta2

I'm currently thinking of buying a site, I'm posting in this forum as there are lots of self builders and competent people with experience of buying sites.

The site is .5 acre, its about 5 mile from where i currently live, its not being sold subject to planning. What should I look out for, ask about and check.

I noticed that virtually all the houses near by are bungalows, I'd be looking to build a two storey, can I check do the council only want bungalows?

Is it possible to check has planning perission ever been applied for before?

Can I talk to the council about the land and see how they feel about granting permission on it.

I'd appreciate any advice at all on what to look out for?

Thanks

MorningStar

Simply go to the local council and do a search on planning applications on the property. Ask the local planning officer about what would be allowed on the site and they'll tell you. It is really simple to do here in Dublin City Council but not everywhere is as organised.

Beta2

Didn't realise it was that simple.

I'll go to the council offices tomorrow. is there a charge for doing this?

MorningStar

Beta2 wrote:

Didn't realise it was that simple.

I'll go to the council offices tomorrow. is there a charge for doing this?

No charge on the search and meeting the local planner can take a bit of time best to ring for a meeting first. All I will say when talking to the planner listen to them and let them tell you what they would allow and not what you want there. Better to have a few meetings than one bad meeting.

harto

We have some articles here to help give you some general guidelines and information.

http://www.helpmebuildandrenovate.com/showarticle.php?article_num=5
http://www.helpmebuildandrenovate.com/showarticle.php?article_num=6
http://www.helpmebuildandrenovate.com/showarticle.php?article_num=21

It may be difficult to get pp for a two storey house when all the surrounding houses are single storey. One area where council planning departments tend to be fairly stringent is in relation to the building line, i.e the highest building height level set by preceding developments. You would probably need to show a precedent of another two storey in the immediate vicinity.

Is the site serviced ? If not you will need to check out how you will provide services to the site, particularly water and sewage treatment. If there are other houses nearby, chances are there is a readily available water connection likewise power and telephone shouldn't be a problem ? Is there a mains sewage connection nearby ? If not you need onsite treatment, then the drainage ability of the land (percolation tests) comes into the equation.

Definitely go and speak to the local council planning department and look for advice. They will tell you if there are any restrictions likely to be imposed, such as being from the area, required occupancy for a number of years etc

Hope this helps,
AndyH
http:www.helpmebuildandrenovate.com

Beta2

Thanks for your detailed post harto.

I was in with the council this morning, they didn't have the site mapped but were able to find the general area, and they said that it didn't raise any red flags.

They said they'd like the house similar to the houses in the area, i.e. a bungalow or dormer.

The site is not serviced, but electric and phone is across the road. I wasn't told about water supply, I presume it is in the area, I can double check this.
The site doesn't have mains sewage and I’d hadn't thought about percolation tests. The land is very close to bog but there are new houses fairly nearby so I'm sure they have some treatment system that works well.

I'm from the area and it'll be my only house, i.e. my home so I don't think they'll be any restrictions in that regard.

Everything seems good but I’m a little concerned:

Why the vendor won't agree to sell subject to planning he'd definitely get a better price?

Once there was a caravan parked on site? Could this suggest that a previous person attempted to apply for planning?

I'm just nervous about shelling out and then being told not a hope in hell of getting planning.

Cheers
B2

lomb

Beta2 wrote:

I'm just nervous about shelling out and then being told not a hope in hell of getting planning.

Cheers
B2

welcome to the world of the property developer. massive gains are possible from high density infill developments on from 'hope land'

i have been reading about how much developers have made. sean dunne is it he who is buying jurys ballsbridge site. well he is banking 260 million on 4 acres +25 million in stamp duty.

people say he is nuts but then again, he bought 133 acres of agri land in rathfarnam in 1997 for 3 million and today its worth 200 million.

thats the shady world of the developers who gambled and won where a 45 million house on shrewsbury road is pocket change.

what u are talking about is a smaller version of the above BUT no less exciting to u. dont do it unless u are taking a CALCULATED risk. and yes he probably is a stroker but thats what u are up against in this world so be careful but decisive.

Beta2

lomb wrote:

welcome to the world of the property developer. massive gains are possible from high density infill developments on from 'hope land'

i have been reading about how much developers have made. sean dunne is it he who is buying jurys ballsbridge site. well he is banking 260 million on 4 acres +25 million in stamp duty.

people say he is nuts but then again, he bought 133 acres of agri land in rathfarnam in 1997 for 3 million and today its worth 200 million.

thats the shady world of the developers who gambled and won where a 45 million house on shrewsbury road is pocket change.

what u are talking about is a smaller version of the above BUT no less exciting to u. dont do it unless u are taking a CALCULATED risk. and yes he probably is a stroker but thats what u are up against in this world so be careful but decisive.

I hadn't thought of it like that, but you're dead right, I know that if that site had outline planning permission it would be at least 50% dearer, probably double.

Thats why i'm nervous, why hasn't the owner done that?

harto

Yes indeed you never probably will know the real reason why the landowner won't sell subject to planning, but I would be very cautious on this front. If you don't get planning then you have an expensive field on your hands and you may be sure the landowner won't buy it back from you.

However if the council is giving an indication (you'll be lucky to get anything other than this) of no red flags, then it is a calculated risk, but could be in your favour. Keep talking to the council and visit them again to have a pre planning meeting with them and your house designer. If you are onside with them at this stage, then you could take a chance and commit to the site with a better feeling. But beware the planning process can be full of headaches and stumbling blocks.

Are you financing this from your own resources ?
The banks won't loan anything against a site with no planning permission in place.

It would be worth investing a in couple of hundred €'s in getting a percolation test done beforehand. This will give tell you how suitable the ground conditions are for any waste water treatment. Are there any reeds on the site ? Are you above or below the level of the nearby bog ? Any risk of flooding in the area ?

If you need a large percolation area to dispose of the treated waste water, then a 0.5 acre site may not be big enough, given the conditions on distance from house, boundaries, wells etc. to be satisfied. Would it be possible to increase the site size from the landowner if required ?

Harto
http://www.helpmebuildandrenovate.com

galwaydude18

well then put a caluse in the contract that you only buy the site pending planning permission. if you dont get planning then you have no obligation to buy it. in fact that is such easy work for a solicitor to organinse that they could to it with their eyes closed and hands tied behiend their backs!

rooferPete

Hi galwaydude,

I think the point being made is the land is being sold "as is" not subject to planning permission.

The reason could be the vendor wants a quick sale with no complications, this means that anyone can buy it local or not and take their chances with the council planners.

Hi Beta2,

I am a little surprised that you got as much information from the council office as you did without pushing for the full record.

I know the Meath planning web site goes back a very long time so you may be able to type in the vendors name of the local authority web site and scroll carefully to see if they have applied for permission before within the records online.

As lomb pointed out buying without the planning permission or galwaydude's suggestion of subject to pp is a risk, if you contact a local Architect they may be able to access the amount of risk that you are taking.

.

galwaydude18

to be honest if a client came into me where I work I would advise them to only buy the site pending planning permission. Your talking the guts of 40 or €50000 or more on a site that may not get planning permission on. even if an architect thinks you will (they need to be very very very familiar with the area to have a reasonable idea) there is no guarantee a planning officer will grant planning on the site!

Beta2

galwaydude18 wrote:

to be honest if a client came into me where I work I would advise them to only buy the site pending planning permission. Your talking the guts of 40 or €50000 or more on a site that may not get planning permission on. even if an architect thinks you will (they need to be very very very familiar with the area to have a reasonable idea) there is no guarantee a planning officer will grant planning on the site!

yea you're right.



The reason the site is for sale "as is", is because someone else tried to get planning on the site before hand. Thats why the caravan was there!

I chalanged The estate agent on this today (They had said that planning was not applied for before), they simple didn't want to hear it saying that it wasn't the current vendor.

Sad to say I'm walking away.

Thanks everyone for your advice

P.S. The asking price has droped 15K, but still far too risky.

galwaydude18

Walk away if you think there was planning you can do a planning search in the council offices for the townland look at the site maps and if your site had a planning app then tell the auctioner that he might get a solicitors letter for fraudalant claims... 15k says it all to me! They are desprate and there was prob an app there before that got turned down! WALK AWAY FROM THIS SITUATION! 15k is a lot to gamble with!

rooferPete

Hi galwaydude,

I think "Very" 3 times says enough, obviously you have seen this before and offered what I can only describe as excellent advice

What I find interesting is the "Word Play" being used by the Auctioneer, no application by this vendor ? that is nothing short of an attempt to steal hard earned money from someone.

Beta 2,

Don't be sorry about walking away, disappointed yes by all means but not sorry, you will remember this one and learn from it.

It would be interesting to see if the Auctioneer will change back to the original asking price when another potential buyer turns up.

If they revert to the old story (watch for the caravan being removed) then Fraud is the only word to describe the sale.

.

galwaydude18

RoofePete "very" 3 times is well underestimated. My boss know's half of county galway like the back of his hand! He can just look at a site and almost instantly know if you will get planning or not! He is not always correct so having a pre planning meeting if the architect is not familar with the area is very and extremly important so as to know wether or not you will get planning!

P.S. peter if you ever need any drawings done during the college year give me shout and I will sort you out for a good deal! Maybe a new rookad parternship!

Ah I couldn't do that on kadman! he's a very friendly and knowledagable man! Know's his way around alot of cad programs....

Beta2

I feel a lot better about walking away now.

I think what happened is that the site was sold before subject to planning but the people who bought it weren't granted permission, so the sale didn't go through.

The site in question is not on the current land registry maps used by the council so they couldn't do a search on their maps, and suggested if i got the vendors name they could search by his name, but as the estate agent said he never applied for planning on the site.

Things that seem to good to be true usually are.

Cheers for all the advice

B2

skywalker_208

So it was for sale before subject to planning permission but permission wasnt granted and the sale fell through.. then the site went up for sale as is without 'subject to planning permission'?

thats sounds dodgy man - you could have been stung badly there....

towbar

Might be worth looking up the previous application and understanding why it was refused. Could be that they werent from the local area.

There is also in some counties an issue with a seller only been aloud to sell x no of sites. Maybe the seller thinks that by selling without planning they will exempt themselves from that clause, not likely though.

As I say I'd look at previous reasons for refusal.

yop

Your are right in walking away BUT as said above, have a look at the previous reasons for refusal, maybe the other client did not like them, meaning it maybe a case that you might find them ok.

Best of luck with it, but a lesson well learned