The tough questions

LovelyHurling

These are some really interesting theological questions I came across when I first read Joyce's A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, and Ive always wanted to ask religious people their opinions...

1.
If a man had stolen a pound in his youth and had used that pound to amass a huge fortune, how much was he obliged to give back, the £1 he had stolen, or the amount along with the compound interest accruing from his huge fortune?

2.
If a layman in giving baptism pour the water before saying the words is the child still baptised?

3.
Is baptism with mineral water valid?

4.
How comes it that while the 1st Beatitude promises the kingsom of heaven to the poor of heart the 2nd promises also to the meek that they shall possess the land?

5.
Why was the sacrament of the eucharist istituted under 2 species of bread and wine if Jesus can be present body, blood soul and divinity in the wine alone?

6.
Does a tiny particle of the consecrated bread contain all the body and blood of JC or only part?

7.
If the wine change into vinegar and the host turn stale after they have been consecrated is Jesus still present therein as God and as man?


*Answers on a postcard*

MDTyKe

1 - Not sure. I'd say £1, but that's just me.

2. Baptism in the Bible is symbolic, and nothing else. Words therefore aren't exactly necessary - as long as the person knows in their heart the reason they're being baptized for, and the spectators, if any.

3. Again, baptism is only symbolic. Show me in the Bible where it is anything other than a symbolic event to show you're a Christian

4. I don't know anything about the Beatitudes to be honest. They aren't in the Bible, but I presume they are comprised of things from the Bible, so the wording may be confusing. Can't answer this one though.

5. The Last Supper was done in the Bible to show, symbolically Jesus' rememberance. Apart from that, wine is wine, it is not divine wine.

6. Show me in the Bible where it says that the Bread/Wine is anything other than symbolic. The Bible is pretty strong that the bread/wine are symbolic to represent in remembrance, Jesus' physical suffering. The bread symbolizes Jesus; body, with the wine representing His blood. Other than that, they're useless, prayed on, blessed, regardless... they are still bread and wine.

7. Not sure what you mean here. But Jesus on Earth was only ever represented as Man. Once He died, he wasn't wholly Man anymore; he was just wholly God.


One note though. Where you brought up in a Catholic background? I'd like to know where some of this stuff came from; nothing against the Catholic Church or anything; they can be wonderful, but I'd really love to know where on earth the idea that the wine is Jesus' literal blood came from - when we're told that the blood is in Heaven (it's sprinkled on the lamb, as spoken in Revelation, and hence isn't on earth). Also I'd love to know where the idea of baptism actually meaning a change or salvation came from.



Matt

McGinty

Good old Joyce, a great man for poking holes in the Catholic faith, and just shows how ridiculous some elements of it is.

1) In relation to the man stealing the £1, it would depend on his own conscience, if he wishes to give £1 back or more back, or maybe nothing.

2) I believe through its symbolism the child is baptised, but during Joyce's time, that and maybe still today would be classed as sacreligious in the eyes of the Catholic church.

3) I guess again according to the Catholic church, the water would have to be blessed by the priest.

4) Don't know enough about this to answer it.

5, 6, & 7 This again relates to Catholic dogma, good old Transubutation, it is the belief of the Catholic church that the bread and wine becomes the literal body and blood of Christ, hence the need for a priest, only through a priest can God use him to transform the bread and wine into the body of Christ, how this came about, I have no idea, it's not bible based.

However when Martin Luther started the Reformation he challenged the Transubutation theory, stating that it was not based on scripture and he developed the theory of Constabutation, ie: that the wine and bread is symbolic of the body and blood of Christ, which still stands today in most Christian religions except Catholicism.

Regarding the hygiene and keeping of communion wine and bread, Catholic priests adhere to strict guidelines (I can't remember what they are) in order that none is wasted or even dropped. Although if it happens I believe that the priest has to take some remedial action, I'm hazy on that one.

LovelyHurling

Thanks, interesting answers. No Im actually a member of the CofI but I thought these were interesting questions for one who held that faith to consider. Personally I dont have much time for the idea of transubstantiation tbh

smidgy

MDTyKe wrote:

5. The Last Supper was done in the Bible to show, symbolically Jesus' rememberance. Apart from that, wine is wine, it is not divine wine.

6. Show me in the Bible where it says that the Bread/Wine is anything other than symbolic. The Bible is pretty strong that the bread/wine are symbolic to

Take a look here - it aint so cut and dried even if your church say that it is so.....I have also read articles in line with your view so I am just proposing this to you as a possibility...

http://users.binary.net/polycarp/thanks.html