insulation queries

Eve1

I have a few questions on insulation and I thought I should post here before I spend the next few days digging for quotes etc.

1. I know there is a few people out there who are installing ufh, I would appreciate some suggestions on the type of insulation used beneath the pipes.

2. We decided to upgrade to 80mm kingspan on the exterior walls on our timber frame, and for the first time I didn't bother ringing around to see if we could do it cheaper ourselves. Does €3650 sound like an okay price for a house of 2125 sq ft.

3. We have an option to upgrade from fibreglass for the roof to 100mm kingspan for €2160, would this be worth it?

Eve

patrido

Eve1 wrote:

1. I know there is a few people out there who are installing ufh, I would appreciate some suggestions on the type of insulation used beneath the pipes.

You need something rigid to take the weight of the slab, and with lots of thermal resistance. Basically Kingspan TF70 or Xtratherm XT/UF.

The thickness you need is determined by your perimeter/area ratio. Mine is a pretty standard 0.31. If your house has loads of bits sticking out like bay windows, etc, you might have a higher P/A and need more insulation.

If I'm not mistaken the regs specify 0.25W/m2K which for P/A of 0.3 requires TF70 @ 60mm. The spec for Xtratherm is pretty similar. You could always up it and get 0.22 by putting in 65mm or more - don't skimp on it

Call or email technical support in either company and ask loads of questions to make sure. They're usually very helpful.

Eve1 wrote:

3. We have an option to upgrade from fibreglass for the roof to 100mm kingspan for €2160, would this be worth it?

This is definitely one place that it's worth spending extra money on, but make sure you're getting your money's worth and that what's specified/installed meets the regulations. The regs are very high for roofs because you lose a HUGE amount of heat through the roof, and it's quite difficult to achieve the specs especially in a dormer.

100mm kingspan will kick the a$$ of 100 mm of fibreglass or even 150mm fibreglass. However, 100mm kingspan is probably not enough on its own. If your roof is ventilated, you need to leave 50mm air gap above the insulation, so that probably limits you to 100mm between the rafters.

If you put in 100mm kingspan between the rafters, and 30mm inside the rafters (assuming it's a dormer), you should meet the regs. Both kingspan (tw51/tw52/tw53) and xtratherm (XT/TL) make a product that's insulation bonded to plasterboard.

Again contact tech support to make sure as I'm going from memory and my setup is probably different to yours.

CJhaughey

I contacted a Ecocel in Ballygarvan co Cork and they do blown cellulose, probably the most efficient insulation for the price, he quoted me €10.00 per m2.
maybe well worth a look especially if you don't have to deal with that itchy scratchy rockwool:)

yop

CJ - I have seen an arguement where they say that the "blown in" insulation does not allow a timber frame to breath, not sure if anyone else has heard this??

CJhaughey

I cannot see that that is the case, surely the ventilation gap under the roof would allow the house to breathe? and in the house itself there must be air for the occupants to breathe?

npgallag

on the insulation subject..century homes gives 150mm fiberglass for external walls and 300 fiberglass for roof....would rockwool be better ...also they suggest the its better not to put any insulation in celing to 1st floor and only insulate bathroom internal walls and no any other, with 100mm fiberglass....sounds more like money pinching to me but not sure..??

yop

Ngallag - strange suggestion alright, not sure why no other internal walls.

In our hut we put 150mm rockwool in external walls, 100mm in internal walls, rigid board in the roof space and 200mm in the ceiling spaces. Its like a flipping sleeping bag now!!!

Eve1

Thanks for all the info,
I have been driven mad about insulation. We thought we were upgrading our insulation and spent a fortune and then realised it wasn't going to meet regs so we are now reconsidering all of our options. We would really like to put rigid board in the roof and on the floor to take the underfloor heating, anyone know whats the cheapest around?

Eve1

Eve1

npgallag wrote:

on the insulation subject..century homes gives 150mm fiberglass for external walls and 300 fiberglass for roof....would rockwool be better ...also they suggest the its better not to put any insulation in celing to 1st floor and only insulate bathroom internal walls and no any other, with 100mm fiberglass....sounds more like money pinching to me but not sure..??

If you don't insulate the other walls I would have thought it would be very noisy between the rooms?

yop

I was in my sisters house there at the weekend, a timber frame, they have also not insulated the internal walls, to me this is been pure tight and there could not be an "building" reason to not insulate them.

npgallag

well ..im in a timber frame at the moment...its a 3 bed semi(attached at garage) and i dont think the builder insulated between walls, or between floors for that matter and i still find it very warm...But i would notice the noise problem, espically when someone upstairs.. Think i will insist the builder insulates internal walls and between floors....Timber frame coming on the 28th ..can wait..

Eve1

Just got prices for the rigid board and I nearly died with the price of it. I only know of three companies xtratherm, aeroboard and kingspan. Are there any other ones?

Eve

patrido

quinn (as in quinn direct, hotels, etc) is another but I doubt they're any cheaper. celotex is huge in the uk, but i've never seen it over here.

money spent on insulation is almost always well spent tho.

towbar

Completely confused on the insulation, anybody willing to write the dummies guide.

Building a timber framed bungalow - what do I need to look out for, want to do better than the basic spec but not sure where to start. Most people here talking about dormer but we have no plans to use upstairs at all how does that impact roof insulation

Options as I understand
Mineral fibre, rockwool and rigid board

Do these have any impact on the wiring and services in the studs? ie. does rigid board make it more difficult to complete the wiring or god forbid run new circuits later?

Also heard alot about thermal bridging around windows doors in timberframe and some people are suggesting insulated plasterboard. Kingspan seem to have insulation for the outside of the timber frame this would seem handier as doesnt impact internal fittings etc.

Thanks for help.

patrido

if you look through previous threads there's lots on insulation - more than enough for a dummies guide

the search doesn't seem to be working but just use google and search for "site:www.boards.ie insulation".

generally you get more insulation per mm from rigid board than from fibre/wool, but it's more expensive. the latter is more fire resistant though.

i don't think it makes a whole lot of difference to the wiring. it's easier to insulate around services with wool than with a rigid board, but you can "chase" through the rigid boards with a stanley or a special tool for the job. wires in insulation can't carry as much current, so have to be derated - your electrician will worry about that.

the key to avoiding thermal bridging is intense attention to every detail! the homebond book (manual of house building or something like that) is a good guide to begin with.

in terms of roof insulation... it's much easier to meet the specs when you're not using the attic space as living space. if space is not an issue you can just use loads of fibre/wool. i think 200mm is the spec, so fill between the ceiling joists and the rest lying on top.

air

On internal walls:
The internal walls upstairs in my 3bed semi d arent insulated. I was thinking of blowing in some cellulose to improve the soundproofing, I read it would improve things if packed tightly. I'd only be looking at having to do 3 or 4 walls.
Is it possible to buy bags of cellulose and hire a blower?

Do-more

air wrote:

On internal walls:
The internal walls upstairs in my 3bed semi d arent insulated. I was thinking of blowing in some cellulose to improve the soundproofing, I read it would improve things if packed tightly. I'd only be looking at having to do 3 or 4 walls.
Is it possible to buy bags of cellulose and hire a blower?

I don't think so, I got the crowd in Midelton mentioned earlier in the thread to do my house. I'd suggest that you give them a ring, they might be able to do your job whenever they are doing another job in the same area.

I had all my internal walls insulated with cellulose and it is definetly good for improving the sound insulation.

oneillk

in relation to insulating

1) it will be difficult to get a higher u-value/better insulation in your external walls than that which meet the current regs using standard construction. Basically the regulation u-value for external walls is at the moment almost as far as they can go for cavty wall, any improvement on the current standard would really require a didderent construction or increasing the cavity in blocks walls (which has knock on effects) or increasing the inner leaf in a timber frame. All of which use up more floor space and increase the cost. I think the best value there is at the moment is a standard cavity wall with 60mm kingspan and then kingspan thermawall on the inside of the inner leaf. It does cost more but i feel it is worth it as it elemenates all thermal bridging.

2)ROOF -
(where ceiling follows line of roof)
again it is difficult to go beyound the current regs for roofs, again the best thein i think is rigid insulation inbetween the roof rafters and again the kingspan thermawall fixed to under siade (for same reasons as above)

(where ceiling is flat)
the best option here is to go for 300mm minimum of fibreglass insulation in roof space with all joints staggerd. (allow at least 50m air space between slates etc for ventilation)

The main issue in relation to above is that for standard forms of construction, the current crop of standard materials can only go so far and it is difficult to go beyound the regs without having to the alternative construction methods.

In relation to sound insulation on internal walls and ceiling-
adding blown or any form of insulation between the studs of a wall or joits of a floor will have limited effectivness and will only marginally help reduce air borne noise.
The reall factor you should be considering is impact noise, and to help against impact noise (in floors) you need to add layers. ie seperate your floor boards from you joists using using a resiliant layer (ie cork, rubber strip etc). this will reduce the impact sound resistance and then adding the fibreglass insulation to help air borne noise. Add ing a second layer of plasterbpard to the ceiling will have a much greater effect in reducing noise than adding extra insulation.

the same goes for walls, while adding insulation will help, adding an extra layer of plasterboard with staggerd joints will have a greater effect.


at the end of the day, the best way to reduce heat loss and save energy is to have your house designed and constructed in accordnace with best practice. Designed for solar gain, correct orientation for the site etc. Its a waste spending loads and loads of money trying to super insulate your home if its designed to loose heat or waste heat or if the workmanship is poor you will loose heat through cracks and poor construction. Use timers on lights, heating etc, seperate bedroom heating from living. Ensure you house is orientated so that the sun shines on the part of your house when you are using it, i.e in the kitchen in the moring and eveing(east to south facing) and in living rooms in evening (south to west facing). This simle steps ensure you will use less heating in those room at that time of day.



hope this helps

air

Do-more wrote:

I don't think so, I got the crowd in Midelton mentioned earlier in the thread to do my house. I'd suggest that you give them a ring, they might be able to do your job whenever they are doing another job in the same area.

I had all my internal walls insulated with cellulose and it is definetly good for improving the sound insulation.

Thats a shame, I've attached an excerpt from ESSN Magazine which contains an article on installing cellulose insulation. It seems very easy and affordable to do in the US.
Pages from ESSN-Aug2005.pdf

I'd have to concur with oneillk on double slabbing for increasing sound insulation. I've lived in a few apartments over the years and one I lived in about 2 years ago had all internal walls double slabbed and it was as good as concrete for sound insulation IMO. You couldnt hear a thing from next door. I'm sure the fire doors helped a lot too.

Viking House

Thats interesting,

I hadn't concidered cellulose, I don't know why, it might have something to do with settlement in walls that I had heard. Does anyone know how dense is it? It should be similar to wood fibre so it should give a good Decrement Delay.
We fill frames with Paroc when they are flat, so it might be easier to use cellulose. Does anybody know where you can buy such a machine and cellulose bags?

Thanks

Do-more

Viking House wrote:

Does anybody know where you can buy such a machine and cellulose bags?

When I had the house insulated 4 years ago, the guy told me that he imported the cellulose from Denmark as there was no local certified producer not sure if that is still the case. If it is, then it's a business just asking to be started!

Do-more

Just found this:

Ecocel is an Irish company manufacturing Cellulose Fibre, a natural insulation made from recycled newspaper and borax.

• ecocel conforms to the requirements of BS 5803
• ecocel offers an environmentally benign solution to current demands for more energy efficient construction methods, improving performance without increasing cost
• ecocel is the sustainable solution.

Ecocel
Salyport
Kinsale
Co. Cork

086 3140004
021 4774740

EDIT: Just checked the Irish Agrément Board list and Ecocel don't appear on the list of certs!

CJhaughey

Thats the company I used, I found Francis to be very good, reliable and concientious.
I think that you will find the rest of Europe has an Agrément list for blown cellulose, after all it does come from Germany.

Do-more

Do-more wrote:

Ecocel is an Irish company manufacturing Cellulose Fibre

Do they manufacture themselves or import the insulation CJ?

There is another product warmcel (made in UK I think) which has an Irish Cert.

When I was researching for my own build I found out that it is important to have a cert for the individual manufacturer as there have been problems in the past with the fire retardents used in some products. In some cases they are acidic if they become slightly moist and effect piping and electrical cables!:eek:

Cheers

Do-more

air

Viking House wrote:

I hadn't concidered cellulose, I don't know why, it might have something to do with settlement in walls that I had heard. Does anyone know how dense is it?

I think the article mentions that you can pack it to different densities without much change in the insulation factor. I'd imagine that by packing it in that bit tighter it would expand enough to counteract any settling, only guessing though.

CJhaughey

Do-more wrote:

Do they manufacture themselves or import the insulation CJ?
Do-more

The cellulose is imported from Germany.
I think they were looking at manufacturing it here but I haven't heard anything since.