RoSPA training

a_ominous

In response to this query, I thought another thread might be best.

All the IRTA trainers have a minimum qualification of RoSPA Silver. Many would have reached Gold and there are also a few diploma holders. I believe this qualifies them to teach others to teach, not just teaching someone to pass a test, be it DoE or RoSPA.

If you're interested in the RoSPA, get Roadcraft book. RoSPA qualification is re-examined every 3 years. The IRTA guys might have copies to sell to you, otherwise Easons will have it.
I got Bronze after only 18 months of riding. But I was on the bike every day and passed my driving test first time. Currently not out on the bike every day, so some things are a bit rusty. I know what I want to do, but cannot get it just right. Especially progress on corners as this is not something I get to do in Dublin traffic. I also have changed bike as my other bike was a restricted bike and I felt it held me back in some parts of the test. Getting a new bike takes time to get settled into knowing the abilities and limits of the machine.

Kinetic^

Cheers for that.

I'm only Driving a Suzuki Burgman 125. Is it going to be worthwhile doing it on this bike?? Will i only be able to reach the bronze level??

a_ominous

I'm not sure that you could do the test on a scooter. It being an automatic and all. The RoSPA test is much more comprehensive that the basic drive-from-A-to-B-without-crashing test. The bike (or scooter) should be capable of motorway speeds (part of test on motorways) and I don't think a Burgman 125 would cut it. A Burgman 400 or 650 might They can really move.

But you could try calling one of the IRTA guys and/or AON who give discounts for the training.

saobh_ie

You can also get Roadcraft from MAG.

Potentially for less money and the profits will be put to something useful, of benefit to you.

a_ominous

You might also be able to get a copy in your local public library. Probably a really, really old copy chiselled in stone ;/

seamus

For the eternally lazy among you:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/011341143X/qid=1124920899/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl/026-6732677-1030867

galwaytt

a_ominous wrote:

I'm not sure that you could do the test on a scooter. It being an automatic and all.

...why the hell not? What's automatic got to do with it?

Most buses, trucks are automatic now, and cars are becoming more so. I see no connection with the type of transmission being any more applicable to skill any more than saying "two wheels bad - four wheels good"

seamus

galwaytt wrote:

...why the hell not? What's automatic got to do with it?

Most buses, trucks are automatic now, and cars are becoming more so. I see no connection with the type of transmission being any more applicable to skill any more than saying "two wheels bad - four wheels good"

Although transmission doesn't detract from the overall safe riding/driving attitude, it does add an extra element to the experience. This is why tests done on automatics yield restricted licences. Particularly on a bike, use of the transmission has a significant bearing on the handling of the vehicle, your reaction time, your anticipation, and so forth.
I wouldn't be happy with allowing a full, full licence to people who do their tests on an automatic.

galwaytt

seamus wrote:

Although transmission doesn't detract from the overall safe riding/driving attitude...

QED to my point, therefore, not yours.....the object of the exercise is, like you said the ‘safe riding/driving attitude’.

This is why tests done on automatics yield restricted licences.

...sorry, this does not follow. There is no imperical evidence of any kind to support restricting licences based on transmission types. Proof of this is the nonsense situation where someone who passes their test on/in a manual – yet they’re not excluded from driving an automatic. Nowhere have I heard of truck/bus/rubbish lorry licence holders being restricted either, so I don’t see why bikers should be singled out…

Particularly on a bike, use of the transmission has a significant bearing on the handling of the vehicle, your reaction time, your anticipation, and so forth.

..if you’re to follow your logic then, a ‘manual’ transmission doesn’t have a significant bearing….nonsense. In fact, the opposite is the case.

it does add an extra element to the experience..

It’s easy to end up in a situation where you’re in a wrong gear for a given situation – particularly emergencies. This can have repercussions ranging from none to frightening. An auto, though, eliminates this factor, and allows you to concentrate your Roadcraft into positioning, speed, observation….and being an automatic, not removes, but CONTROLS an element which more likely enhances rather than detracts from the situation.

I wouldn't be happy with allowing a full, full licence to people who do their tests on an automatic.

….your statement is both subjective and technically unfounded, and has no place in constraining other riders in a modern driving/riding environment.

A member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists myself, there was a recent editorial in the IAM’s magazine on this subject. Consider, if you will, the following,…young people introduced to motoring for the first time, have to contend with vehicle control and roadcraft and it is a combination of the two which makes us good/bad/indifferent drivers/riders.
Now, 17 yr olds, out on the public road, therefore, are learning a multitude of tasks, in an inherently dangerous environment – the public road. If the initial driving experience by using, say, an automatic, allowed them to perfect their Roadcraft, then they would inherently have a better chance of being safer, earlier on. Later, if they change to a manual, they will have reduced their likelihood of being involved in an accident, as a significant element – Roadcraft – will have already been learned. At the later stage, they are modifying their skills, not starting from scratch.

As you English teacher would say……….”discuss”…!!

seamus

galwaytt wrote:

QED to my point, therefore, not yours.....the object of the exercise is, like you said the ‘safe riding/driving attitude’.

Yes, and part of safe riding is correct control of the vehicle. If you are used to an automatic, and introduce manual transmission into the fray, you will have to add a new step into each an every manouver.

...sorry, this does not follow. There is no imperical evidence of any kind to support restricting licences based on transmission types. Proof of this is the nonsense situation where someone who passes their test on/in a manual – yet they’re not excluded from driving an automatic. Nowhere have I heard of truck/bus/rubbish lorry licence holders being restricted either, so I don’t see why bikers should be singled out…

But....licences are already restricted when you pass in an automatic. It wouldn't make sense to restrict if you pass in a manual. Driving an automatic in effect reduces the complexity of driving.

..if you’re to follow your logic then, a ‘manual’ transmission doesn’t have a significant bearing….nonsense. In fact, the opposite is the case.

Sorry, that wasn't my point. What I meant was that the type of transmission has a significant bearing. There's an extra degree of error inherited by use of the manual transmission, so drivers need to learn to minimise that, and experience it in everyday situations. By switching from auto to manual, you're essentially introducing a new, continuous hazard into your driving, which needs to be mastered from scratch.

It’s easy to end up in a situation where you’re in a wrong gear for a given situation – particularly emergencies. This can have repercussions ranging from none to frightening. An auto, though, eliminates this factor, and allows you to concentrate your Roadcraft into positioning, speed, observation….and being an automatic, not removes, but CONTROLS an element which more likely enhances rather than detracts from the situation.
….your statement is both subjective and technically unfounded, and has no place in constraining other riders in a modern driving/riding environment.

You've completely proven my point. I'm not saying manual good/auto bad, or that driving an auto is inherently more dangerous. What I'm arguing is that there is quite a difference between driving an auto and driving a manual - so much so that if you have passed a test on an auto, that doesn't necessarily make you competent to drive a manual.

A member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists myself, there was a recent editorial in the IAM’s magazine on this subject. Consider, if you will, the following,…young people introduced to motoring for the first time, have to contend with vehicle control and roadcraft and it is a combination of the two which makes us good/bad/indifferent drivers/riders.
Now, 17 yr olds, out on the public road, therefore, are learning a multitude of tasks, in an inherently dangerous environment – the public road. If the initial driving experience by using, say, an automatic, allowed them to perfect their Roadcraft, then they would inherently have a better chance of being safer, earlier on. Later, if they change to a manual, they will have reduced their likelihood of being involved in an accident, as a significant element – Roadcraft – will have already been learned. At the later stage, they are modifying their skills, not starting from scratch.

You'll be aware of the system then. And the effect that removing the need to change gears has on the system.

I would agree that an auto would help earlier development of roadcraft in drivers, but in this country I don't think it would have a huge bearing on overall safety without sweeping reforms to driver education and testing - auto or manual, roadcraft still needs to be taught. That's off the point though. As you say yourself, moving to a manual requires modification of your skills. It adds an extra step to the system, for a brief period the driver is back in the learner phase. So why ignore that and pretend that they're fully qualified?

galwaytt

Seamus, we're not as far apart on this as you think...

seamus wrote:

...But....licences are already restricted when you pass in an automatic. It wouldn't make sense to restrict if you pass in a manual. Driving an automatic in effect reduces the complexity of driving.

Quite so, they are, what I'm saying there's no technical merit for it.
My point is you are putting manual as some sort of superlative - it isn't. It's merely different. Most people have NOT driven automatics, this we know. Most think they’re weird, that they ‘lose’ control to some sort of device with a mind of it’s own….. To presume that a manual-driver/rider is 'better' is not true. Better at what, exactly? Keeping out of accidents? No, don’t thinks so. Sheer volume of no’s of accidents shows us otherwise.
Besides, if you plant a 'manual' person into/onto an automatic, they invariably bump into the first thing they come close to. And close-quarter driving/parking, like urban, particularly so. It is not that it's 'easy', or that manual is 'hard', it's that they're different.

I would agree that an auto would help earlier development of roadcraft in drivers, but in this country I don't think it would have a huge bearing on overall safety without sweeping reforms to driver education and testing

…not disagreeing with you there about the reforms, but you can’t be serious that an any action that would endgender better roadcraft doesn’t have a serious safety benefit, surely?…
It’d be interesting to see if the predominant cause of accidents – particularly amongst learners – are due to machine control, or roadcraft

As you say yourself, moving to a manual requires modification of your skills. It adds an extra step to the system,

…and the corollary to that also applies…

for a brief period the driver is back in the learner phase. So why ignore that and pretend that they're fully qualified?

I’m not ignoring they’re back ‘learning’, but as you said yourself, it’s modification more than anything else, but at least they’re learing ONE thing, not TWO.

Basically, I still don’t agree with your statement that you’re not ‘fully qualified’. You’re still putting manual on a pedestal………

…btw, I read yesterday in MCN that there’s a rumour next years’ FJR13 has some sort of ‘auto’ box………..woohoo, where do I sign up?

Kazujo

I agree with the points that an autopmatic bike allows a new rider to develope road craft as they have leess to think.

But I strongly agree with restricting licences after tests on automatics. Driving a manual bike is very different from driving an automatic. As stated it is not so much that one is harder than the other they are different. It's just there are more differences going from auto to manual than the other way around.

If you are used to just twist your right hand to go and pull both levers to stop, it's a completely different world when it's twist throttle release clutch and kick into gears and a foot break too, there is much more co ordination required.

Yes there is a learning curve going from manual to auto but it is no where near as steep as going from auto to manual, this is why the licence is restricted.

galwaytt

Kazujo wrote:

I agree with the points that an autopmatic bike allows a new rider to develope road craft as they have leess to think.
Driving a manual bike is very different from driving an automatic. As stated it is not so much that one is harder than the other they are different. It's just there are more differences going from auto to manual than the other way around.

If you are used to just twist your right hand to go and pull both levers to stop, it's a completely different world when it's twist throttle release clutch and kick into gears and a foot break too, there is much more co ordination required.

Yes there is a learning curve going from manual to auto but it is no where near as steep as going from auto to manual, this is why the licence is restricted.

..by your own admission, then, there is quite a difference. So what makes you think that manual riders make even acceptable, let alone good, auto-riders?
Put a manual-rider on an auto, and the first thing he'll do at the first junction is to pull the left hand lever - previously a clutch - straight back to the bars..........which will lock your rear wheel and send you careening into oncoming traffic..........I can see you find that prospect as some sort of minor iconvenience......

Your left hand is trained on a manual to pull clutch quickly and feed out gently. An automatic requires the exact opposite level of sensitivity...

Similarly, pull the front brake to slow...and then go for an imaginary foot pedal.....by the time your foot hits the footboards and you realise you should have pulled the left hand lever.........it could be too late.....way, way too late......

...no if you're going to restrict people, you have to cut it both ways...you can't have your loaf and eat it...

Kazujo

I don't think there are many manual riders that would go back to riding an auto. The transition is seen as upwards from auto to manual. With the development of large mopeds there are alot of people who may never drive a manual bike but I don't know any who drive a manual bike who would consider going back to auto.

In terms of riding a moped and a motorcycle have drastically different riding position and road handling (due to the sitting postion and tiny wheels of automatics)

The reason that automatic licences are restricted is because you have to demonstrate engine in the test, using gears to slow down proper clutch control etc. How can you demonstrate this in an automatic.

My point is that there is more to learn going from auto to manual, than the other way round and there are more requirements in terms of the test for manual riders.

Just out of curiosity to aim slightly for the topic, can you even qualify for Rospa certification on a moped?

galwaytt

Aha, now we're getting somewhere!!

Kazujo wrote:

I don't think there are many manual riders that would goback to riding an auto. The transition is seen as upwards from auto to manual.

Obviously, you only speak for yourself and that's the problem. You cannot allow your perceptions to govern something as intrinsically basic as other people's right to ride whatever they like...

With the development of large mopeds

Whoa right there !! What you're thing of as a moped is no such thing. A moped is officially defined as capable of no more than 45km/h and no more than 50cc. All the other machines - like my Aprilia 500 for example, are classed as motorcycles legally. You are falling into stereotypical mode right there and that's what you need to address...

there are alot of people who may never drive a manual bike but I don't know any who drive a manual bike who would consider going back to auto.

given that manual bikes have been out on the market for 110 years and automatics of useful comparison to ordinary bikes have been out for 5 years (?)....then that's a bit of a sweeping statement, to say the least....I replaced my 2004 R1200GS with the Aprilia and I let people try it on purpose to open their eyes to this whole other world....

In terms of riding a moped and a motorcycle have drastically different riding position and road handling (due to the sitting postion and tiny wheels of automatics)

factually incorrect. My Aprilia has a 15'' front wheel with a 120/70 tyre. An early Fireblade has a 16'' wheel....what's tiny about that??? And, my Aprilia has twin discs on the front as well as linked brakes front/rear. The 06 model has ABS I believe....this makes my Aprilia more advanced than similarly sized "ordinary" bikes..

The reason that automatic licences are restricted is because you have to demonstrate engine in the test, using gears to slow down proper clutch control etc. How can you demonstrate this in an automatic.

No, the reason it's like that is because there were no automatics available when the test was invented (in the 50's iirc...)

My point is that there is more to learn going from auto to manual, than the other way round and there are more requirements in terms of the test for manual riders.

Again, this is unfounded. Different skills and an out of date test...

Just out of curiosity to aim slightly for the topic, can you even qualify for Rospa certification on a moped?

Good question - I've just applied for mine so I'll let you know soon !! Oh - and THEY'RE NOT MOPEDS !!

Kazujo

galwaytt wrote:

Aha, now we're getting somewhere!!

Obviously, you only speak for yourself and that's the problem. You cannot allow your perceptions to govern something as intrinsically basic as other people's right to ride whatever they like...

Who do you speak for?

I'm not infringing on anyone's right to ride waht ever they like. Each to their own I personally prefer a manual motorcycle. I started out on a moped and developed my road craft and basic skills then moved up to a manual and I have no intention of getting an automatic again but that is me.

galwaytt wrote:

A moped is officially defined as capable of no more than 45km/h and no more than 50cc.

Ok fair cop on the official definition, but for simplicty in this post it is easier to refer to automatic motorcycles as big mopeds, in fairness apart from the definition of engine capacity and speed that's what they are. Apart from the Gilera DNA they have all roughly the same deisgn. Yes your 500cc Aprillia has a 15" inch wheel and twin disks and all that but alot of smaller engined mopeds don't.

This is one of those arguements that will keep going until the mod's get bored and lock the thread, which spoils the topic.

I have a personal preference to manual bikes and am slightly bias to that.

You have a personal prefernce to auto bikes and are slightly bias to that.

A manual bike does take more to learn to ride ( I think we agree on this point?) and alot more to ride well, which is why the manual licence is seen to superceed and automatic licence.

Put a manual-rider on an auto, and the first thing he'll do at the first junction is to pull the left hand lever - previously a clutch - straight back to the bars..........which will lock your rear wheel and send you careening into oncoming traffic..........I can see you find that prospect as some sort of minor iconvenience......

This is a bit of a broad statement too don't you think, what would happen if you reversed the situation?


Each to their own and let me know you get on with RoSPA, I'm planning to do it soon too.

To try and finally pull the thread back on topic has anyone here got stories of what was covered on the test?

galwaytt

yes, this could go on forever I agree.......but to clarify my personal perspective...

Kazujo wrote:

Who do you speak for?

...no one, not pretending to

This is one of those arguements that will keep going until the mod's get bored and lock the thread, which spoils the topic.

...on a different note, to lock a thread out of 'boredom' would be a bit pedantic, I'd hope this board isn't like that..........there's far worse we could be doing.

You have a personal prefernce to auto bikes and are slightly bias to that.

....actually I don't. It's just that I've developed a wider perspective It's just that when I got rid of my GS12, I wondered about what to buy.....sports? custom?...and I came to the conclusion that if I did buy one of those, after 2 mths I'd be wondering why I bothered, so I decided to buy something COMPLETELY different - a totally foreign -to me- type of machine and riding experience. And I think you'll agree that with the AA500, that's exactly what I've ended up with !! And I have to say, that's why I've started questioning some of the status quo........btw, of all the bikes I have (5), only 1 is auto, and go from one to the other quite easily.

On the Rospa - as soon as I hear, I'll let you know............

Krusty_Clown

Shoulds probably be posted in another thread (but then again, this thread started talking about ROSPA training!), but out of interest, why did you go from a GS12 to an Auto. scooter?

I wanted to go for something completely different, so bought a GS12..
All of my previous bikes have had a sports bias, so the sit-up, 'watch the world as it goes by', type bike really appealed to me... I always figured the big scooters would be quite dull to ride in comparison to a big bike, but obviously my assumptions are based on zero experience.. What's so good about it (asked in a curious, non-offensive tone)...

Kazujo

Here's a link to the Test guidelines from the Rospa website, it shows what is taken into account:

http://www.rospa.com/drivertraining/courses/advanced_tests/pdf/bike_guidance.pdf

On the application form it says for motorcycles and scooters so it seems they do cater for scooters.

There is alot more to the test than just engine control but surely the test would be easier if you don't have gears to be changing? You need to be a good rider either way to get the certification. The issue of the licences being restricted is a different animal altogether.

Just out of curiosity

only 1 is auto, and go from one to the other quite easily.

Put a manual-rider on an auto, and the first thing he'll do at the first junction is to pull the left hand lever - previously a clutch - straight back to the bars..........which will lock your rear wheel and send you careening into oncoming traffic..........I can see you find that prospect as some sort of minor iconvenience......

I think you have a broader experience than alot of people on these points, did this happen to you when you first switched? Or did you adjust to the auto straight away?

Would you not atleast agree that the transition from manual to auto is esaier than the other way round, given your personal experience?

I was a bit over dramtic about the thread being locked but for a minute it was spiralling way off topic.

galwaytt

Krusty and Kazujo....have a look here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3349305#post3349305