Cultural difference that is hard to relate to

MorningStar

I have some firends and family that work with a few different new immigrants to Ireland. They have mentioned a few differnt things they find hard to understand or deal with. One seems to be if a rule exists that they don't like they will whinge (and cry) to get you to give them an exception and when you don't they get aggresive and start shouting.
Has anybody else got similar situations or is just my friends?

Note I am not mentioning a skin colour, race or country so please don't either to avoid any suggestions of racism. I believe it is cultural difference but I don't don't understand it.

Flukey

All countries are different. It is only when we go abroad and see how other societies function that we really see this. Things we take for granted or see as being normal are different in other countries. Simple things like how easy going the Irish are. It's one of the reasons that Irish soccer fans get such a good welcome abroad, because of our easy going and fun nature. When we come into contact with other cultures here, we see a bit of their culture, but I suppose it is only when you get to know them better and some of their friends and family that you see the differences.

flogen

what Flukey said.
I'm not sure what your friends experience has been and with what culture, but it's easy to see huge cultural differences amongst even European countries. For example there's the stereotype that French people are ignorant, they may be by our standards but over there it's the way they live. I find that out of all the different nationalities that holiday in Ireland, Spanish people can be the most rude, loud and ignorant but again, it's just a generalisation and it's just their culture.

RE*AC*TOR

I don't think I've ever heard of French people being called ignorant. EVER. Do you mean lacking knowledge or rude? I would have thought that comparable to Ireland, the French would be more knowledgeable (less ignorant).

Alun

One seems to be if a rule exists that they don't like they will whinge (and cry) to get you to give them an exception and when you don't they get aggresive and start shouting.

Sounds like most Irish people to me, to be honest

MorningStar

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

I don't think I've ever heard of French people being called ignorant. EVER. Do you mean lacking knowledge or rude? I would have thought that comparable to Ireland, the French would be more knowledgeable (less ignorant).

I would tend to agree with you over the use of the word "ignorant" but most people use it to mean rude no matter how annoying it may seem. To suggest any country is more knowledgeable than another probably misses the whole country as a tourist, imigrant or host country you don't tend to ever full see the full spectrum of society like a native.

Can we please try not to use countries or race. It doesn't need to be mentioned.

flogen

sorry, I did mean rude, not ignorant... how ignorant of me!

and as for mentioning countries, I'm not trying to say that my experiences would be reflective of each country (As a matter of fact I've never had any negative experiences with french people, I was mearly using the best known stereotype of rudeness in Europe). I've never been to Spain but from what I know it's a nice country (the actual country and not the bloody Irish/English plantations). I've just found Spanish tourists in Ireland to be much more upfront, in the sense that, when working in a shop, they will but in when you're dealing with another customer because they have a query. I know they don't all do it, and I'm sure it's a more common way of trading in Spain, but in Ireland that would be considered rude.

simu

MorningStar wrote:

One seems to be if a rule exists that they don't like they will whinge (and cry) to get you to give them an exception and when you don't they get aggresive and start shouting.

Yeah - whereas we go looking for brown envelopes/friends or family that can bend the rules a bit for us.

Newbies to Ireland will pick it up in time.

daywalker

i've generally found that a lot of europeans assume that you are from the UK, and their attitude towards you is generally of the cold shoulder variety, for example when i was staying with a group of fellow irishmen(and women), we found the waiters/waitresses to be very stiff in dealing with us, until one of the group mentioned that we were from ireland and their attitude changed totally, they couldnt do enough for us

Hobbes

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

I don't think I've ever heard of French people being called ignorant. EVER. Do you mean lacking knowledge or rude? I would have thought that comparable to Ireland, the French would be more knowledgeable (less ignorant).

Depends a lot of where you are in France and again it is a culture thing. I found the French that I know from around Paris were very snobbish if you don't know French all that well. Those from the south of France were more relaxed when it came to language (made allowances).

A good example, a chinese friend of mine in Paris wanted to know where a street was. Asked a guy "Excuse me do you speak English" in french and was told "Yes but not in France" and he walked off.

There are worlds of culture difference between countries, even something subtle as body language. For example in Korea it is normal for a person not to look directly at you while talking to you, where as in Ireland that would be considered kind of rude. Or a Korean who is laughing at you while your getting angry is in fact getting very embarrassed/upset with the situation. To a westerner it would look like they are making fun of you.

flogen

daywalker wrote:

i've generally found that a lot of europeans assume that you are from the UK, and their attitude towards you is generally of the cold shoulder variety, for example when i was staying with a group of fellow irishmen(and women), we found the waiters/waitresses to be very stiff in dealing with us, until one of the group mentioned that we were from ireland and their attitude changed totally, they couldnt do enough for us

I've got to admit that I've noticed that in some countries in Europe, perhaps not to any great degree, but it's always a case of them asking you in a very serious tone "you are from England?", you then say "no, we're Irish", and they suddenly light up, smile and seem delighed at the news. I can't be certain but I'd be sure that a lot of people in Europe may not have had a negative experience with English guests but are wary of them as a result of news coverage of hooliagism etc.

MorningStar

simu wrote:

Yeah - whereas we go looking for brown envelopes/friends or family that can bend the rules a bit for us.

Newbies to Ireland will pick it up in time.

How incredibly witty of you. But I have yet to hand anybody a brown envelope to leave an hour early from work have you?

aidan_walsh

MorningStar wrote:

How incredibly witty of you. But I have yet to hand anybody a brown envelope to leave an hour early from work have you?

There was usually a P45 in it when I saw it happen.

flogen

MorningStar wrote:

How incredibly witty of you. But I ha
ve yet to hand anybody a brown envelope to leave an hour early from work have you?

If you're going to hint at specific examples of this "cultural difference" where these people get aggressive because they want their way, then for God sake just come out with it.
Have you heard a story where someone got aggressive because they wanted to leave work early? Please do give us details or else keep it to yourself.

MorningStar

flogen wrote:

If you're going to hint at specific examples of this "cultural difference" where these people get aggressive because they want their way, then for God sake just come out with it.
Have you heard a story where someone got aggressive because they wanted to leave work early? Please do give us details or else keep it to yourself.

The wife trains in Fas so deals with lots of different nationality and the behaviour comes up for everything ranging from leaving early, needing to repeat exams, change of course, why they were late, why they failed etc..
You name it, where there is any conforntation the pattern is the same. Very pathetic and meek when asking initially but if the don't get their way they become verbally aggresive. It's all aggresion but starts with passive aggresion the way it seems to me.
I only answered because you have Mr. Hawkins in your sig

embraer170

Someone mentioned the French above. A little tip:

*If you approach a French person speaking English, they'll always try to talk to you in French. However approach the French person speaking another language (German, Spanish, Irish?) and first thing they'll say is "Do you speak English?"

It works!

MorningStar

Little tip for you when in another country try to speak the local language it is just polite

flogen

MorningStar wrote:

Little tip for you when in another country try to speak the local language it is just polite

indeed, while Hobbes example does show rudeness on the individuals part, I think you can almost understand to some degree.
As far as the FAS thing goes, has your wife seen examples where people would ask to leave work early just because they wanted to, and got aggressive when their request was declined?
Also, what's that about Hawkins, MorningStar?

MorningStar

flogen wrote:

indeed, while Hobbes example does show rudeness on the individuals part, I think you can almost understand to some degree.
As far as the FAS thing goes, has your wife seen examples where people would ask to leave work early just because they wanted to, and got aggressive when their request was declined?
Also, what's that about Hawkins, MorningStar?

They get aggressive after being meek about many, many things. The stress is getting to her because it is so hard to deal with. It is not what she is seeing but experiencing. It's not just her I am hearing it from anybody who deals with different nationalities and it seems to be one particular crowd. Lots of forged documnetation appearing too. It is a bit like saying you can't say Irish people are drunks but also know that many Irish people when away drank and fought a lot.
The picture you have appears to be Screamin' Jay Hawkins is it somebody else?

simu

MorningStar wrote:

How incredibly witty of you. But I have yet to hand anybody a brown envelope to leave an hour early from work have you?

I wasn't trying to be witty at all - if you interpreted it as so, it was a complete accident.

Now, observe my post above more carefully. You will notice this symbol - / - inserted between the two options I gave. See:

for brown envelopes/friends or family

This means that Irish people tend to resort to either of the options on either side of the slash symbol. In most cases, the second option is the easiest and thus used far more often than the first.

Also, you seem to be interpreting the term "brown envelope" literally. I was using it as a metaphor for bribery in general. Surely this usage is obvious to anyone who is familiar with the Irish media?

Chavster

Are they abusing your wife if they don't get their own way? Or just becoming emotional in general?

It's very frustrating if you can't get across what you want to say properly which would lead to a raised level of emotion.

MorningStar

simu wrote:

Also, you seem to be interpreting the term "brown envelope" literally. I was using it as a metaphor for bribery in general. Surely this usage is obvious to anyone who is familiar with the Irish media?

I did get what you meant perfectly. I just don't think it is true and I thought you were being witty when you appear to be dead serious which either way has no bearing on the type of situation I am talking about. I don't know how anybody can resort to paying their boss/superior in a brown envolope or asking a friend to sort it out. Lets just leave it at that

MorningStar

Chavster wrote:

Are they abusing your wife if they don't get their own way?

It's not quite abusive but a method to achieve a goal.

Chavster wrote:

Or just becoming emotional in general?

It seems to be a definite method to attempt to get their way. Ask increddibly humbly, beg (maybe cry especially if female), shout then give up. The point being you just keep having to say no

Chavster wrote:

It's very frustrating if you can't get across what you want to say properly which would lead to a raised level of emotion.

English is their first language. It is a means to an end as far as anybody can make out.
The people who are talking about this are liberal minded and well educated. THe whole situation makes them uncomfortable as it is hard to deal with and seems to be an intential way to look for weakness in any kind of authority figure or percieved authority figure. Think of a begger who keeps begging and then gets ratty if you don't give them enough.

simu

MorningStar wrote:

THe whole situation makes them uncomfortable as it is hard to deal with and seems to be an intential way to look for weakness in any kind of authority figure or percieved authority figure. Think of a begger who keeps begging and then gets ratty if you don't give them enough.

What's hard about it? Ask them politely but firmly to leave and if they refuse, call security/the guards.

MorningStar

simu wrote:

What's hard about it? Ask them politely but firmly to leave and if they refuse, call security/the guards.

Well you have 7 and half hours of that a day and see how you feel. If you can't see the possible strain this might cause maybe you should go look for the most stressful job you can find as you sound capable.

simu

MorningStar wrote:

Well you have 7 and half hours of that a day and see how you feel. If you can't see the possible strain this might cause maybe you should go look for the most stressful job you can find as you sound capable.

Well, you have to expect that sort of thing if you're dealing with the general public. If you can't handle it, pick a different sort of job. What other option is there?

MorningStar

simu wrote:

Well, you have to expect that sort of thing if you're dealing with the general public. If you can't handle it, pick a different sort of job. What other option is there?

Things have changed due to a new group of people and it is a classroom not the public. Thank you for the contribution but that is not what I was asking the topic is about cultural differences not what to do or carrear advise. If somebody starts kicking you in your job you don't say get used to it. :rolleyes:

simu

Well, you're being very vague. Although I see why you're not naming nationalities, it's pretty hard to discuss the topic of cultural differences without doing so.

Hobbes

Actually as crazy as it may sound Irish have quirks which are strange to non-Irish people. You just don't notice them.

For example the "Pay your electricty bill on time and win a car". The ESB do this because Irish are so bloody lazy to pay bills. Or having a builder/electrician call around and say they will be around tuesday but don't turn up until Friday and then don't do the job until a few days later (and take longer to get the money). Or having an Irish person turn around to you and just make general conversation.

Or the way that Irish can slag the hell out of each other and people just let it wash off them. I've seen almost fights in work in Ireland and then they would be talking to each other 10 minutes later. In USA for example if I ever saw the same thing one of them would call HR on them.

One seems to be if a rule exists that they don't like they will whinge (and cry) to get you to give them an exception and when you don't they get aggresive and start shouting.

Its certainly possible but more likely that person is unstable to begin with.

MorningStar

Hobbes wrote:

Its certainly possible but more likely that person is unstable to begin with.

It is not an individual it appears to be people from one country. More than one person has mentioned to me so that's why I mention it as a cultural thing.

I am aware Irish people have their own quirks from working outside the country but when in Rome.