Finishing after junior cert?

Gwyllin

Why?

I know a guy who didn't want more schooling after he got his junior(edit) certificate. He's bad at spelling and I get the feeling that this is quite common in Ireland. To quit school and start working. I'm from Norway and used to seeing that everyone chooses some kind of further education and we have 100% literacy in Norway too. So perhaps I'm being misled.

This guy isn't dumb either. He's really clever and has a way with words, when he speaks that is.

Is it true that many quit after their junior cert.? If so, why?

garthv

It used to be that way, a lot of workplaces would take you in if you only had a leaving cert but in the past 5 years the majority of workplaces look for a junior cert as standard. When I was in school I found that the people who left after the junior cert just didnt want to be there in the first place...

Crania

No, its not common at all to leave just after your Junior Cert, actully its very very uncommon. Years ago, practically everyone left after Junior Cert if they didn't quit before that but its completely different now. Most employers wouldn't even consider taking a person on if thier only qualifications was the Junior Cert.

Most people do go onto some form of further education after the Leaving Cert, generally college/university or an apprenticeship.

And I think in Ireland have something like 99% literacy rate so its very high and only a very small minority cant read or write.

limerick_man

And for those theres always 'Read, Write, Now' on RTÉ

newgrange

In 2004 12.9% of those aged 18-24 had left school with at most lower-second level education. That would be Junior Cert. or before. In some areas, up to 25% of people leave school after their Junior Cert., and many don't even make it that far.

I work in such an area, and we often have students trying to return to education at about 18 or 19, but there are no schemes to allow them to.

When I did the Inter. Cert., 27 years ago, I did not know it was possible to leave afterwards, because no-one in my school did. I soon realised that just because I knew no-one who did, did not mean it was not happening. People are still leaving school early - every year there would be about 10 to 12% of the 18 year old age cohort who have not completed school.

Gwyllin

CoolCiaran wrote:

No, its not common at all to leave just after your Junior Cert, actully its very very uncommon. Years ago, practically everyone left after Junior Cert if they didn't quit before that but its completely different now. Most employers wouldn't even consider taking a person on if thier only qualifications was the Junior Cert.

Hi CoolCiaran! Nice to see you on this baord!

This guy I know of, he finished his junior cert. about 15 years ago. So I suppose that was the time when many people did that. So why did so many quit schooling after the junior cert.?

Gwyllin

newgrange wrote:

In 2004 12.9% of those aged 18-24 had left school with at most lower-second level education. That would be Junior Cert. or before. In some areas, up to 25% of people leave school after their Junior Cert., and many don't even make it that far.

I work in such an area, and we often have students trying to return to education at about 18 or 19, but there are no schemes to allow them to.

When I did the Inter. Cert., 27 years ago, I did not know it was possible to leave afterwards, because no-one in my school did. I soon realised that just because I knew no-one who did, did not mean it was not happening. People are still leaving school early - every year there would be about 10 to 12% of the 18 year old age cohort who have not completed school.

That's very interesting, newgrange!

But Can't I person who has only achieved his Junior Cert. go back to school later if he regrets having quit so early? Can he study for a Leaving Cert. when he is say 18-19?

"In some areas, up to 25% of people leave school after their Junior Cert., and many don't even make it that far."

Why is that so? Is it a trend or is it because of dumbness?

newgrange

He can study for a Leaving Cert. at any stage of course, but will lose his social welfare entitlements if he is not 'available for work'. Similarly lone young parents, they can enrol for courses, but a certain point comes where they end up losing out by making attempts to get themselves out of the poverty trap. There used to be schemes to help, but the cutbacks have done away with almost all of them. It's crazy - people who are already costing the State money, are prevented from getting themselves a qualification to get them a job and become contributors to the tax man. Of course, most of these people don't vote, so who cares about them.

The reasons for early school leaving - if the best brains in the country haven't come up with a solution, I doubt I will, but it's a combination of many factors - poor parenting, lack of education in the home, poor attendance (in some cases these kids have missed up to two complete years of primary school in days off here and there), lack of traditional models to follow, family needing a wage however small when he/she is 16, lack of achievement in school, low self esteem, educational disability - in short it's about poverty I suppose. Not just, or even necessarily poverty in monetary terms, but poverty in an outlook on the world.

It's not always to do with a lack of intelligence - some of the brightest children I ever taught had self-esteem in the gutter and quit at almost everything they ever attempted. For many early school leavers, the damage is done before they even get to school. I shudder every time I hear a parent tell a pre-school child asking a question to 'shut up' as eventually I know they do stop asking and just give up.

In my school, we had a child who came in last year at 13 reading at the level of a 7 year old, as almost all his class did. In one year we brought him to the level of an 11 1/2 year old, simply by giving him two classes of paired reading a week and making sure he took at least one book/magazine/comic from the library a week. He read his first books with us, and once he started, he flew. In the space of one year he went from being unable to read even something as basic as 'The Sun' newspaper, to being able to attempt 'proper' books, including his school text books, which previously he could not understand. The difference in his self-esteem was amazing. He no longer quits when presented with difficult tasks, as others in his class do. He still has a few years to go before the Junior Cert., but hopefully by then we will have him in the frame of mind to stay on afterwards and do a Leaving Cert. too. He is well capable of it. he might end up with a 'bare pass' Leaving, but the fact that he will be there at all is the reason I went into teaching.

Gwyllin

newgrange, you're a teacher? Wow! I did ponder the great amount of knowledge and experience that you had that seemed to come from nowhere. And now I understand why! It's interesting to have a teacher on the boards! I never expected that!

This guy I know is really clever. He enjoys reading and he has told me a bit about what he likes to read. He is quick-witted and learns very fast. You see, I taught him some words in Norwegian and he managed them perfectly. Others normally have problems speaking, but he surprised me!

I'll go a bit off-topic.. In what subject(s) do you teach?

newgrange

Hi Gwyllin
Yes, I'm a teacher. I ended up posting here when I saw some of the rumours people were posting about exams and how they are corrected. I've been involved in correcting many times.

I teach Environmental and Social Studies for Junior Cert. It's one of the newer subjects which sadly only a few schools do - it is integrated and locally based History and Geography, and allows a great deal of freedom in what topics the student studies, which allows people to research topics they are interested in, rather than just 'do the book'. In fact, there isn't a book for ESS. In the past I have also taught standard History and Geography to Junior and Leaving Cert.

You friend is an example of something I see every year, students who are academically bright, and well able for Leaving Cert., but because of other factors (mainly social), leave school early. The one hope I suppose is that your friend will probably make sure any children he has will finish school, even though he didn't get the chance to, and maybe the cycle will stop.

Reading and enjoying reading is a fabulous gift. There are very few things you cannot educate yourself about through reading.

I met an old man once, who kept apologising that he was poorly-educated and had left school at 12, but that man had borrowed and read three books from the library every week throughout his life, and was an expert on the lives of all the major WWII generals and leaders. He knew far more about the war than many History graduates I know, and yet he felt as if he was inferior. He knew all about modern conflicts too, even very small ones all over the world, as when something was mentioned on the news, he would go and find out all he could about it. He might not have had a Leaving Cert. or a Junior Cert., but he was far better educated than many who have.

Gwyllin

Hullo newgrange,

My friend is a construction worker actually. He enjoys physical work and is technically very brilliant too. His spelling is aweful of course, but I understand what he means when he writes to me and that is the most important thing. We have an old man in our district who used to be a carpenter. He was always a practical man, but he loves reading books. He says that's what keeps his mind up and going, and now he is 90 years old. He can tak to you about anything because he reads all kinds of books. I think such people are wonderful!

ESS sounds like an interesting subject. Probably ideal for those who are concerned with environmental issues like me. May I ask, where did you study?
What sorts of topics do you deal with in this subject?

newgrange

I'm not sure whether we're boring people here, and we're gone a little off topic, sorry, so I'll be as brief as I can.
The Environmental and Social Studies syllabus is here:
http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/jc_envsocialstudies_sy.pdf
It's a .pdf, sorry. It's a very open syllabus and gives a teacher a great deal of freedom.

Assessment is made up of the Junior Cert. exam in 3rd year and two projects (worth 20% each) in Geography and History, so a total of 40% for the two projects. The 'Geography' project has to be done as part of a group, and groupwork skills such as working with others, reliability, deadline-meeting etc., are awarded marks, along with the actual project.

This coming year, I hope to do a project with my second years based on Dublin Docklands, which is near our school. We will do surveys on land use and compare today's maps with ones from, say, the 1970s when the docks were in decline. Each child will then be assigned a ship due into Dublin Port in March or April of next year, and will track that boat round the world, corresponding with the captain by email, finding out what ports they are visiting and what cargo they are carrying. They will keep records of all this in their project. In associated classwork, we will cover things like international trade, exploitation of resources, tariffs and taxes etc..

In the History Research topic, they can choose the topic themselves, though I like to guide them towards a project on what Dublin was like when their granny/grandad/great-granny etc. was young. This means they have a personal involvement with the subject and tends to lead to higher motivation and better results. It has to be done individually, and individual skills are rewarded. Such a project is almost entirely primary 'real' research, visiting churches, libraries and archives, conducting interviews, and it gives the students a real insight into their own family and area. I think it's a fantastic subject (I know, it shows...sorry, I'll stop soon...).

I originally trained as a History/Education/Theology graduate 20-odd years ago, and have done numerous training courses since, in all sorts of areas, but my primary qualification would be History. Usually, teachers of ESS are History, Geography or Science graduates.

Gwyllin

Your engagement shows, yes. You should have been my teacher in ESS. It's a shame that we don't have this subject in Norwegian schools. It's so relevant to our soicety. The Norwegian school system is sort of obstruct. It does sound like this is more a subject for adolescents rather than young children. It sounds like you are having 13 year olds making sophisticated conclusions with majro laboratory/field work projects!! :eek: But that is just how it seems, no worries.

I don't mind us going off-topic. Nobody continued to post anything on what this thread was really about anyway. I enjoy talking to you and I can see that you are very intelligent and passionate. It's always a pleasure to meet such people. We could always continue via PMs. It's so interesting to learn about the Irish school system, and I have never talked to a teacher on the internet before. My school days are over of course. I'm 19 now and going to study Irish at Trinity in a year(unless you had not allready checked my posts and knew this)! And thank you so much for being so informative - and your engagement is contagious!

Have you been involved in environmental activism or anything similar?