Fitzwilliam last Sunday night (full moon maybe)?

smurph

Hi,
Was just wondering if anyone played in the Tournament last Sunday. I did and found the atmosphere quite strange. Maybe it was the horrendous amount of hangovers on people from the Dubs match the previous day; don't know but there was definitely "Don't mess with me" feeling around, me included.. Anyway at our table there was a stack of chips with no player. Someone had rang in on the last three hands for new entries and had not turned up yet. Needless to say Mr. Invisible was on the BB and it went all around the Board with no raises!!!. I had mucked my cards, and said loudly don't let Invisible man win. Grace was dealing and told me to make no comments, because I was not in game. Fair enough, Flop comes up, everyone checks, turn everyone checks, river and everyone f**king well checks. At this stage im purple with the temper. Couldn't believe it. American guy sitting beside me says "Relax honey, that guy’s cards are dead, you do know the game"? Now anyone who knows me knows at this stage I did seriously contemplate decking the American guy, who looked about 12, and happily get barred, but held back (Just about). Grace turns over Invisible mans cards and GUESS WHAT, he wins with two pair. Then all hell breaks loose, everyone shouting about the injustice of it and no way should he win. His cards were dead. Denise was called over, and in Denise style (which was brilliant) stated "his cards were live, he won the pot and it was our fault at table for not betting or raising preflop to ensure his cards were dead". I sat there with a big "I told you so" grin wiped all over my face. Then the big discussion continues for about 5 mins more. Eventually a guy called Gerry very eloquently states "Could everyone just shut the f**k up about the hand, its over, a ruling was made and yous are doing my head in." Then the American beside me states "It’s healthy to debate rules instead of sticking our heads in the sand". Meanwhile his friend is standing up at another table swinging his arms around his head going "yeah Baby". Apparently he did this every time he won a hand!!. After the brake with my head frazzled I made a ridiculous call and yet another tournament bit the dust. :eek: :eek:

mewso

lol. Surely you turned to the american guy when the BB won and said "You do know the game?"

smurph

musician wrote:

lol. Surely you turned to the american guy when the BB won and said "You do know the game?"

I was too busy grinning and looking at his mate making a tool of himself at the other table. I swear to god they should get one of those punch bags installed so you can go out whack the punch bag and stroll back in calm as anything.

DeVore

LOL smurph. I'm surprised you didnt deck the guy too!

The ruling is correct and its not the first time I've seen it happen. You should have been at the WSOP to see some of the "victory dances" that were going on. It was both laughable and frightening.

I beyond time that someone sat down and came up with a book on the rules of poker. Even a stab at it would at least give use something to solidify around.

Oh, and proper rules, with good reasons behind them. Not that farce the WPT prefers.

DeV.

JuliusFranco

haha..i often thought that it could technically happen but i didn't think it ever would....

ionapaul

I experienced some unpleasant (IMHO) poker etiquette online last night. A player and I (he limped, I was BB) were the only two left when the flop came 7 7 Q rainbow. I was holding Q T off I think. I was first to act and made a 2/3 pot sized bet, which he called (scary but online who knows what moves mean anything anymore!). Turn was a rag, I should have bet for information but decided to check, as did the other fellow. River was another rag, no straight or flush draws on the board. I made my bet (1/2 pot but I wasn't pot committed), he deliberated and then said 'You have a 7?'. Deliberated some more and re-raised me, almost putting me all-in. I won't go into my thought process here (for fear of embarassment) but ended up calling the decent chap, who was holding 7 7 for the quads.

He later proceeded to encourage the others to check it down to knock me out, fair enough I do the same myself but wouldn't actually chat about it to other players, I don't think it's on.

Am I alone in thinking he showed poor poker etiquette with his speech play? In case anyone is generalising about loudmouth Americans, the gentleman in question was a middle-aged (from his photo) Frenchman.

Imposter

I think the 7 speech play was ok but talking about checking it down to knock you out while the hand is in progress is not on. If you reported him he would get a warning on most sites for that.

Doc Farrell

smurph wrote:

Hi,
Was just wondering if anyone played in the Tournament last Sunday. I did and found the atmosphere quite strange. Maybe it was the horrendous amount of hangovers on people from the Dubs match the previous day; don't know but there was definitely "Don't mess with me" feeling around, me included.. Anyway at our table there was a stack of chips with no player. Someone had rang in on the last three hands for new entries and had not turned up yet. Needless to say Mr. Invisible was on the BB and it went all around the Board with no raises!!!. I had mucked my cards, and said loudly don't let Invisible man win. Grace was dealing and told me to make no comments, because I was not in game. Fair enough, Flop comes up, everyone checks, turn everyone checks, river and everyone f**king well checks. At this stage im purple with the temper. Couldn't believe it. American guy sitting beside me says "Relax honey, that guy’s cards are dead, you do know the game"? Now anyone who knows me knows at this stage I did seriously contemplate decking the American guy, who looked about 12, and happily get barred, but held back (Just about). Grace turns over Invisible mans cards and GUESS WHAT, he wins with two pair. Then all hell breaks loose, everyone shouting about the injustice of it and no way should he win. His cards were dead. Denise was called over, and in Denise style (which was brilliant) stated "his cards were live, he won the pot and it was our fault at table for not betting or raising preflop to ensure his cards were dead". I sat there with a big "I told you so" grin wiped all over my face. Then the big discussion continues for about 5 mins more. Eventually a guy called Gerry very eloquently states "Could everyone just shut the f**k up about the hand, its over, a ruling was made and yous are doing my head in." Then the American beside me states "It’s healthy to debate rules instead of sticking our heads in the sand". Meanwhile his friend is standing up at another table swinging his arms around his head going "yeah Baby". Apparently he did this every time he won a hand!!. After the brake with my head frazzled I made a ridiculous call and yet another tournament bit the dust. :eek: :eek:

Nice one Collette. There's a couple of cheeky brats around at the moment who act the maggot when Luke isn't around and one of them is gonna get smacked soon. I hope I'm not involved but it's in the air alright.

califano

ionapaul wrote:

He later proceeded to encourage the others to check it down to knock me out, fair enough I do the same myself but wouldn't actually chat about it to other players, I don't think it's on.

Am I alone in thinking he showed poor poker etiquette with his speech play?

i agree and think this is probably the worst thing a person can suggest to others at a table. its the height of bad poker etiquette.

and while were discussing poker etiquette heres a little one thats not terrible but i dont like it as it influences the hand. its hapenned several times online but for the first time live the other night. 3 of us in the hand and the river card gets turned. first to act just mucks his hand as he knew his high card had no chance. now for me this is giving the next to act more information as theres only me left so it can encourage a bet knowing that he has just one opponent in the hand instead of two. i didnt really like that.
is this considered game ball or frowned upon?

Doc Farrell

rounders123 wrote:

i agree and think this is probably the worst thing a person can suggest to others at a table. its the height of bad poker etiquette.

and while were discussing poker etiquette heres a little one thats not terrible but i dont like it as it influences the hand. its hapenned several times online but for the first time live the other night. 3 of us in the hand and the river card gets turned. first to act just mucks his hand as he knew his high card had no chance. now for me this is giving the next to act more information as theres only me left so it can encourage a bet knowing that he has just one opponent in the hand instead of two. i didnt really like that.
is this considered game ball or frowned upon?

I muck my hand all the time if I think it will encourage a showdown between others that will benefit my tourney position. Never really thought of it as lacking in manners, just sneaky strategy.

Imposter

rounders123 wrote:

is this considered game ball or frowned upon?

I don't think it's that bad either. It hides information from your opponents too!

A funny little story: I was playing a 3/6 limit cash game after I got knocked out of the live tourny the other day and I got HU with a guy who was raising all through the hand. He made a scene about me having to show first but after a ruling he had to. So he mucked his hand instead of showing it! Little did he know but I had nothing either

califano

smurph wrote:

Meanwhile his friend is standing up at another table swinging his arms around his head going "yeah Baby". Apparently he did this every time he won a hand!!.

i think i know that bastad

biteme

Doc Farrell wrote:

I muck my hand all the time if I think it will encourage a showdown between others that will benefit my tourney position. Never really thought of it as lacking in manners, just sneaky strategy.

I must find out a ruling on this. I wonder if I call to see your hand if you've mucked on the river before the betting has finished am I allowed to see it if it goes to an uncontested showdown.

Regards the ettiquette of it, I think it's bad form as it's the same as talking about the hand in progress. You are giving unfair information to the player next to acts as he/she has one less player to worry about...

califano

biteme wrote:

Regards the ettiquette of it, I think it's bad form as it's the same as talking about the hand in progress. You are giving unfair information to the player next to acts as he/she has one less player to worry about...

exactly my point. im glad someone agrees with me for onest!
Doc i think its definately lacking in manners.

Marq

You should never muck your hand unless there is a bet into you. It's against the rules. Many people will do it in cash games, where the rule is not strictly applied, but in a tournament you should endeavour not to do it at all.

Similarly, if someone says bet, and you are next to act, you should never throw your hand in until they have announced how much they are betting, as it gives them information that could alter their bet size.

smurph

Doc Farrell wrote:

I muck my hand all the time if I think it will encourage a showdown between others that will benefit my tourney position. Never really thought of it as lacking in manners, just sneaky strategy.

.
I was playing beside you couple of weeks ago and you mucked out of turn and I gave out to you aswell, but you know the aul saying "In one ear out the other" As for the "Encourage a showdown between others that will benefit my tourney position", it was early in tournament with buy ins still on so I think you were a little bit optimistic.......I tell you one thing it must be a nightmare trying to keep it under control in the cash games. Frank Hunt is a serial offender, Mucking out of turn, betting out of turn, checking out of turn, seat hoping, MIA half the night.

Doc Farrell

smurph wrote:

.
I was playing beside you couple of weeks ago and you mucked out of turn and I gave out to you aswell, but you know the aul saying "In one ear out the other" As for the "Encourage a showdown between others that will benefit my tourney position", it was early in tournament with buy ins still on so I think you were a little bit optimistic.......I tell you one thing it must be a nightmare trying to keep it under control in the cash games. Frank Hunt is a serial offender, Mucking out of turn, betting out of turn, checking out of turn, seat hoping, MIA half the night.

In fairness I think i had to go pee or get a coffee or something

Marq

Leave your cards where they are and the dealer will muck them for you in turn

Doc Farrell

Marq wrote:

Leave your cards where they are and the dealer will muck them for you in turn

Really thanks for enlightening me. Feel free to post replies continuously which are obvious. :mad:

I'm gonna have to get you a badge that says 'I think you'll find it's pronounced patronising'.

It was a JOKE!

On the subject of throwing in your hand instead of checking, I'll do it whenever i choose and that really is all there is to it, whatever anybody thinks. jesus.

playing, out of turn, now thats an entirely different matter... :rolleyes:

MadsL

the dealer will muck them for you in turn...

...and if you are in seat 10, I'll muck them whether you like it or not

Marq

Doc Farrell wrote:

Really thanks for enlightening me. Feel free to post replies continuously which are obvious.

If this was so obvious, why did you muck your hand out of turn?
As for:

I muck my hand all the time if I think it will encourage a showdown between others that will benefit my tourney position. Never really thought of it as lacking in manners, just sneaky strategy.

and

I'll do it whenever i choose and that really is all there is to it, whatever anybody thinks.

It's unethical, unmannerly, unfair and above all else, not allowed.

If you're seeking further enlightenment, feel free to ask.

btw, what exactly does "Feel free to post replies continuously which are obvious. " actually mean?

Doc Farrell

Sorry Marq,

I wasnt really paying attention. I never muck my hand out of turn. Never. But I do sometimes fold instead of checking. It saves on the brain cells. My apologies. I didnt read the earlier post properly.

Doc Farrell

actually, I read Smurphs post and although I did muck my hand rather than check it I certainly didnt muck it out of turn which is wrong and out of order.

however personally, if someone wants to throw away their cards, when its their turn, instead of checking, then i say, go right ahead.
cheers, d.

Daithio

That American sounds like a right prick so I hate to argue in his favour but the Fitz is the only cardroom I have ever played in that doesn't muck a player's hand when they are away from the table. Absolutely everywhere else, including all the cardrooms in Vegas, rule that if you are not seated at the table before the last card is dealt your hand is dead. The reason behind it is that if you aren't sitting at the table you might be able to get a peek at somebody else's hand and then sit down and play your own. It makes a lot of sense really.

califano

Marq wrote:

It's against the rules.

if this the case then why does the software allow it?.

Marq

rounders123 wrote:

if this the case then why does the software allow it?.

Rules vary from cardroom to cardroom, just as they vary from online site to online site. I'm obvoiusly only commenting on the rules in the fitzwilliam. Stictly, you aren't allowed act in any way out of turn, and this includes mucking your hand. On top of that, even mucking your hand in turn should not be allowed unless there is a bet into you. unfortunately there is very little that a dealer can do to avert this, as once a player's hand is mucked it is dead, and the information that the player is intending to muck their hand is already out there. most of the time it means very little, and doesn't actually affect the play of the hand, but as it can theoretically change how the hand is played out, it is technically disallowed.

online sites also allow re-raising after an under-raise, and allow raises which are less than double the last bet, but as I said, this varies from site to site and to cardroom.

There have been numerous articles in Cardplayer calling for a standardization of table rules and etiquette. I think it's a fantastic idea.

smurph

Doc Farrell wrote:

actually, I read Smurphs post and although I did muck my hand rather than check it I certainly didnt muck it out of turn which is wrong and out of order.

however personally, if someone wants to throw away their cards, when its their turn, instead of checking, then i say, go right ahead.
cheers, d.

Apologies Doc, I didn't mean to imply you mucked when it wasn't your turn, I meant you mucked your cards instead of checking, which I felt was wrong and out of turn (sorry im confusing myself now).

roryc

Marq wrote:

Stictly, you aren't allowed act in any way out of turn, and this includes mucking your hand. On top of that, even mucking your hand in turn should not be allowed unless there is a bet into you.

Does this include when people get up and leave for the toilet during a hand, before it gets around to them to fold, (presumably to give them more time)?
Their hand will be mucked when it reaches them as they are not in their seat. I've seen this happen in the fitz a few times, and never thought about it as being rude, but I can see how it can give extra info to the players still betting

Better stop doing it so...

califano

if its against procedure in the fitz maybe the dealers should at least remind the person that does it that its against the rules here to muck in turn instead of checking. this would also be good for the other players at the table who didnt think there was anything wrong with it. so if anyone does it again after the dealers initial reminder at least everyone knows they are flouting the rules.
its seen at its worst when there are 3 in the hand and first to act folds.

NickyOD

Marq wrote:

Similarly, if someone says bet, and you are next to act, you should never throw your hand in until they have announced how much they are betting, as it gives them information that could alter their bet size.

That's a very good point Marq. I've often done this when someone has announced a raise and I've folded behind before he announced how much, usually because I want to speed things along.

NickyOD

Doc Farrell wrote:

I'm gonna have to get you a badge that says 'I think you'll find it's pronounced patronising'.

lol. godda get me one of those.

Marq

roryc wrote:

Does this include when people get up and leave for the toilet during a hand, before it gets around to them to fold, (presumably to give them more time)?

their hand will only be mucked if there's a bet into them, otherwise they are deemed to have checked. they have ticked the live poker check/fold box.