Hand Question

shaydy · 14-08-2005 2:23pm #1

Hi,

Have a look at the following hand and let me know what your thoughts are on how I played it pre flop. Looking back I feel I should have raised but when Flowersman calls here in early position I decided against it at the time as he had played pretty tight with the standard big cards. I felt if any high card hit the board I could walk away easily.

After the flop there was no getting away from the call I feel, or was there?

How do you all play small pocket pair, do you find them more profitable than not?
S

** Game ID 291362808 starting - 2005-08-12 20:16:29
** $7,500 GUARANTEED:Table 16 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (300.00|600.00 No Limit - MTT) Real Money

- JONES25 sitting in seat 1 with $1845.00
- Dozz13 sitting in seat 2 with $1045.00
- JonahJackson sitting in seat 3 with $6105.00
- Smegal sitting in seat 4 with $2170.00
- skearns (HERO) sitting in seat 5 with $4692.50 [Dealer]
- Acekiller (VILLAN) sitting in seat 6 with $1847.50
- rubio25 sitting in seat 7 with $4165.00
- Micky147 sitting in seat 8 with $8220.00
- FlowerMan sitting in seat 9 with $4655.00
- LUMPOLD1 sitting in seat 10 with $3970.00

Acekiller posted the small blind - $150.00
rubio25 posted the big blind - $300.00

** Dealing card to skearns: 4 of Spades, 4 of Clubs

Micky147 folded
FlowerMan called - $300.00
LUMPOLD1 folded
JONES25 folded
Dozz13 folded
JonahJackson folded
Smegal folded
skearns called - $300.00
Acekiller called - $300.00
rubio25 checked

** Dealing the flop: 4 of Diamonds, 9 of Hearts, Jack of Hearts
Acekiller checked
rubio25 checked
FlowerMan bet - $300.00
skearns raised - $900.00
Acekiller went all-in - $1697.50
rubio25 folded
FlowerMan folded
skearns called - $1697.50

Acekiller shows: King of Hearts, 8 of Hearts

** Dealing the turn: 10 of Clubs
** Dealing the river: Ace of Hearts

Acekiller wins $4895.00 from the main pot
End of game

Ardent · 14-08-2005 4:04pm

I can't really see how you could have got away from this. You did the right thing by raising big style on the flop. The other guy took a gamble with a semi-bluff, got called and got lucky. It's hard to fold even though you know you're up against a probable flush draw.

JuliusFranco · 15-08-2005 1:00pm

well my 2 cents, preflop, limping i on the button here is ok i think

i probably would have bet more on the flop but it would have had the same result anyway....Acekiller was shortstacked, he had odds to call but with his stack size he really couldn't just call...in fact his all in move had +EV!

another question, if you were Shady (or me in Shady's shoes) would you have been worried about a higher set? in the hear of battle i wouldn't but should i be?

also, who would have went all in instead of checking in Acekiller's case?

jimbling · 15-08-2005 1:28pm

post-flop... nothing wrong, just a beat thats all.

pre-flop....

to be honest, with that stack against those two players I would have probably folded.

the 4s are just too low. You are ruling out the possibility that you will have an overpair to the board, so all you are counting on is hitting the set. the fact that one of the players in the pot is very short-stacked.... and the other a tight player I would not think it would be a profitable play to just limp here. its either fold or raise (all-in move here is possible if you dont mind risking a race).... with my strong preference a fold.

jimbling · 15-08-2005 1:33pm

JuliusFranco wrote:

another question, if you were Shady (or me in Shady's shoes) would you have been worried about a higher set? in the hear of battle i wouldn't but should i be?

wouldnt think so.... with a bottom set in a multiplayer pot I would be conscious about it... but with only two players still in the pot I would be very confident. Anyone with a pair of Jacks would have raised pre-flop.... In that stage of a tournament you have few oppertunities to build your stack significantly... although I would have folded it pre flop (for the same reasons) I would go all the way with the trebs... almost no matter happens post flop

PPP-Pit Boss · 15-08-2005 1:45pm

I see very little wrong with it.. The hearts were a bitch. Good chip position not the kind of hand you want to gamble with in good chip position against overcatds. I think the call was a good choice. I may have chosen to go allin post flop in order to discourage anyone with a high heart, consequently you left the choice to him and he took it.

NickyOD · 15-08-2005 1:50pm

Preflop call is fine. You want to see cheap flops with small pairs in the hope of hitting set. Postflop you got your chips in as a big favourite and got outdrawn. **** happens.

JuliusFranco · 15-08-2005 1:54pm

you are only hoping to hit a set here and you have the right (implied)odds to just limp in and try...

don't agree with all in preflop - why risk everying on what would be a conflip at best?

jimbling · 15-08-2005 2:00pm

NickyOD wrote:

Preflop call is fine. You want to see cheap flops with small pairs in the hope of hitting set. Postflop you got your chips in as a big favourite and got outdrawn. **** happens.

cheap flops?

I think his stack here is deceiving. It is more that most of the other stacks are very short, rather than his been a high stack.

His M is 10 in this instance, I would think that you are in a bad position to be limping and hoping to hit the set. A higher pair (77 88 99) gives you the chance to overpair the board.... but 44 its purely set value......and even when that does come in... you only have one other limper so far, and so you may not get any action if you do hit.....
I just doubt that limping here is +EV...... but then again what do I know

jimbling · 15-08-2005 2:07pm

JuliusFranco wrote:

you are only hoping to hit a set here and you have the right (implied)odds to just limp in and try...

don't agree with all in preflop - why risk everying on what would be a conflip at best?

first point.. i have explained my reasoning in last post... I may well be completely wrong.. but that is the way I would have played the pot

secondly... I didn't advise going all-in pre-flop... I said it was an option if you were the type that liked to race (which there is a lot of).

My advice was to fold pre-flop.. but if you stay in go all the way when you do hit the set......

any mathematicians out there that can sort the situation out

NickyOD · 15-08-2005 2:36pm

jimbling wrote:

cheap flops?

I think his stack here is deceiving. It is more that most of the other stacks are very short, rather than his been a high stack.

His M is 10 in this instance, I would think that you are in a bad position to be limping and hoping to hit the set. A higher pair (77 88 99) gives you the chance to overpair the board.... but 44 its purely set value......and even when that does come in... you only have one other limper so far, and so you may not get any action if you do hit.....
I just doubt that limping here is +EV...... but then again what do I know

He is calling for less that 10% of the UTG+1 stack, THE SB also has about 14BBs. I think calling is fine. It's not a GREAT situation but the fact that he has the button also means he may get the oportunity to take the pot down on the flop even if he doesn't hit the 4.

jimbling · 15-08-2005 2:51pm

NickyOD wrote:

He is calling for less that 10% of the UTG+1 stack, THE SB also has about 14BBs. I think calling is fine. It's not a GREAT situation but the fact that he has the button also means he may get the oportunity to take the pot down on the flop even if he doesn't hit the 4.

good point.... and it is a marginal call / fold. But I think the possibility of the sb going all in (which he probably should have), forcing me to discard my bet, or race for his stack.... would have tilted me towards the fold....

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