Question about MMA Clubs

Can an MMA club stay on track without entering into external competition?

Say an MMA club uses MMA training methods to train but does not (out of principle or otherwise) enter any (including the coach) fighters into MMA or Sub Wrestling competition.

Is competition necessary to keep the club on track- i.e. keep it grounded?

Thoughts...

john kavanagh

competition taken in a healthy spirit is good for the physical and mental development we talk about in martial arts.......but its not the be all and end all

as long as people are sincere in their intentions and the training methods are Alive then there is no need for external validation - in fact its this 'letting go' of meaurement that 'Aliveness' is all about, the fact that the training methods are functional is a nice side effect.

All 'competition' does is turbo charge your growth, but the road is long and in the end its only against yourself so whether you sprint there or jog who cares as long as you are smiling along the way

John,

Do you think that if competition isn't there to give a reality check that complacency can kick in within a club. Since people aren't necessarily pushing themselves beyond their limitations like they might be during competition do you think they can rest on their laurels.

Colum

john kavanagh

in my most humble opinion...

question -

Do you think that if competition isn't there to give a reality check that complacency can kick in within a club.

answer -

competition taken in a healthy spirit is good for the physical and mental development we talk about in martial arts.......but its not the be all and end all

as long as people are sincere in their intentions and the training methods are Alive then there is no need for external validation - in fact its this 'letting go' of meaurement that 'Aliveness' is all about, the fact that the training methods are functional is a nice side effect.

question -

Since people aren't necessarily pushing themselves beyond their limitations like they might be during competition do you think they can rest on their laurels.

answer

All 'competition' does is turbo charge your growth, but the road is long and in the end its only against yourself so whether you sprint there or jog who cares as long as you are smiling along the way

Cheeky bastard

Maybe I should have better phrased Round 2 of the questions.

Say a club isnt competing. It trains for reasons like self defence etc. etc. There are certain elements of MMA training that cant be trained full blast (knees to the face, harsh ground n pound) and maybe when competition isnt their to give people a kick up the arse they dont prepare properly for the full harshness factor of being hit with full intent. They assume that strategies that work when hits are light will work when hits are hard. Maybe they havent had the urgency drilled into then like it is for fighters/competitors.
When someone is training for an MMA fight it keeps reality in check within the club cause everyone surrounding the fighter has to raise their games aswell.

My point was that aside from competition kickstarting development surely no-competition can make the sport go in a different direction.

Say you take 2 MMA clubs and have one competing and the other one not. Surely over 10 years the form of what they do will change? Or maybe I'm talking out of my arse.

john kavanagh

i know these are not the answers you want to hear but IMHO

Say you take 2 MMA clubs and have one competing and the other one not. Surely over 10 years the form of what they do will change?

competition taken in a healthy spirit is good for the physical and mental development we talk about in martial arts.......but its not the be all and end all

as long as people are sincere in their intentions and the training methods are Alive then there is no need for external validation - in fact its this 'letting go' of meaurement that 'Aliveness' is all about, the fact that the training methods are functional is a nice side effect.

There are certain elements of MMA training that cant be trained full blast (knees to the face, harsh ground n pound)

here's the real answer

All 'competition' does is turbo charge your growth, but the road is long and in the end its only against yourself so whether you sprint there or jog who cares as long as you are smiling along the way

but i'll give you another one which might taste better....for now....

whether a MMA athlete is training for competition or not a good coach will not let anyone train certain elements of MMA full blast - this would not be smart training. however if you really believe that someone can watch MMA events and train the 3 ranges fully Alive (in an intelligent way) and yet not fully grasp what could happen when things go 'live' in a cage or streetfight etc then that person is probably mentally retarded and really shouldn't be put in a situation where they might be hurt.

Ok kav to try and knock you out of your loop by asking a different question how about this...

as long as people are sincere in their intentions and the training methods are Alive then there is no need for external validation - in fact its this 'letting go' of meaurement that 'Aliveness' is all about, the fact that the training methods are functional is a nice side effect.

Do you think its possible in the long term to maintain "sincere intentions" without competition to keep your intentions sincere? Do you think that sometimes, over time, its easier for people just to take the easier way and take certain "hard/unpleasant" elements of their training for granted and just not bother?

I'm wondering did a whole bunch of TMA people way backl when who actually good fight somewhere along the way (and over a period of time) slide from functional to non-functional due to complacency and lack of urgency to stay focused on performance (say without competition or during peacetime)

john kavanagh

Do you think its possible in the long term to maintain "sincere intentions" without competition to keep your intentions sincere?

if i was to answer 'Yes/No'.....that would mean i didn't understand

as long as people are sincere in their intentions and the training methods are Alive

if someones sincere intent is to improve performance in Stand-up, Clinch and Ground in objective reality and their training methods are Aliveness then the question doesn't make sense.

they are either sincere or they are not
the training methods are Alive or they're not

sincere + Aliveness = increased performance. unavoidable.

but a ha you ask 'but at what rate??'

what if they trained with so and so
what if they juiced
what if they ran 10miles every day
what if they followed a strict diet
what if they competed every weekend
what if what if

measurement.....'but at what rate will they improve...'

well now we're back to

All 'competition' does is turbo charge your growth, but the road is long and in the end its only against yourself so whether you sprint there or jog who cares as long as you are smiling along the way

Ok kav to try and knock you out of your loop

there's no leaving the loop i'm afraid

1. Aliveness is good because its Truth and thats good for the mind....the fact it leads to functional martial arts is a nice side effect

2. competition is a form of measurement (like belts). taken in the right spirit they can be a good thing.......but it really aint that big a thing (and making them so leads to the dark side fear/desire). as someone much smarter than me once said. 'your current level of performance is a brief look at where you are now, where you were and where you're going'

just smile, be honest and enjoy NOW

Roper

columok wrote:

Do you think that if competition isn't there to give a reality check that complacency can kick in within a club. Since people aren't necessarily pushing themselves beyond their limitations like they might be during competition do you think they can rest on their laurels.

Hi Colum,
I know that question was aimed at John, but, eh... well I just have question.

What percentage of club members are going to compete? And at what level? In some places it may be low (5%?) or in others high (90%). I don't think you can stop once it comes to rationalising what level of competition we're talking about also. ie. Amatuer level- good, but hey no Gn'P so some complacency might kick in....

If you're honest with yourself, I don't think you can become complacent, and for me good training partners who share that honesty and who train for improvement, for themselves/ring/cage/street/mat, are the best form of anti-complacency. The only danger I would see is if you were top of the tree and were coasting, but how many of those people are there really?

Hey guys,

I don't know if I agree with this

they are either sincere or they are not

I think everyone while maybe intending sincerity due to the messed up ness of the human mind we make excuses, we (sometimes) shy away from the hard bits etc. etc. Sincerity is constantly battled by the ego, by fear and (i suppose its the same thing) laziness. And yeah I know its a gradual transition to being 100% sincere.

I get the whole rate of progress thing. I get that some supercageultimate warriors are gonna progress faster than joe normal once a week etc.

The only danger I would see is if you were top of the tree and were coasting, but how many of those people are there really?

Well imagine if you were top of your club and you don't compete. Or a really big strong guy who can kick everybody's ass in your little club. Surely someone like that needs to fight other big strong guys and realise that strength isnt always the answer.

And I know most people dont compete but I was thinking that if a gym is training (even one) fighter(s) then it has to continually raise its game so he doesnt get his ass beat.

Cheers lads,

Colum

john kavanagh

yes colum and we need organised religion to keep us moral....i mean how else would we know right from wrong?

Ya sarky bastard.

Careful now or I'll photoshop a picture of you marrying a donkey.

The inspiration for me thinking was Southern Hemisphere rugby and how them not competing certain aspects of the game (scrums) has made the sport change. Its only when they compete with the northern hemisphere that this shows up.

And i wasnt coming at it through a "personal development" angle rather I was looking at MMA as a sport.

Roper

columok wrote:

I think everyone while maybe intending sincerity due to the messed up ness of the human mind we make excuses, we (sometimes) shy away from the hard bits etc. etc. Sincerity is constantly battled by the ego, by fear and (i suppose its the same thing) laziness. And yeah I know its a gradual transition to being 100% sincere.

I get you. But I believe this is where a good training partner(s) comes in. If you're sparring or drilling and they punish you for the things you shy away from, you'll soon get booted out of that zone. Not implying punish as in ass whooping, but if I were making a mistake, I could get it pointed out to me ahem, "physically" by my partner. All it takes is a cuff with a 14oz glove to make you keep your hands up for example.

Well imagine if you were top of your club and you don't compete. Or a really big strong guy who can kick everybody's ass in your little club. Surely someone like that needs to fight other big strong guys and realise that strength isnt always the answer.

This is a problem I have believe it or not . I get my ass handed to me externally by 90% of people but in a little group of lads we have together I'm top of the tree, well, top of the shrub anyway. I got some advice when I had no coach and it's helped me out. So in addition to training elsewhere, I also handicap myself, give people position or whatever. There's always somebody who drops by to offer a different challenge too, a strong guy or someone with good pins etc. In addition my training buddies are always improving so it becomes more difficult for me. Obviously my learning curve is shallower than theirs and it's good to tap guys but I'm more looking forward to the stage where we're all on a par and I get tapped regularly. Sounds dumb, but I think that's when you've really let the ego go and the learning begins!!!

Birdie

In Reply to the OP i do think a little competition is healthy and does keep the standards up. But in my old club the Coach was a little to competitive. the only competition he trained properly for were the world championships. Training became more often, standard's did become higher and people from he's dad's club came down to train and people from his club went up there to train, but this was only for about a month before.
Throughout the rest of the year it was just normal, we sparred once a week as normal but when we went to Irish competitions it was kinda just something to do, even for Roy Bakers Irish open we didn't train for it, we just went.
I know it's normal to train hard for the world's, but a few weeks ago our coach went ape **** at us saying to some that we're a disgrace to the club and that we don't win enough!! His attitude pushed me over the edge with him and i didn't really want to train for him anymore and I don't.
I know my Story's is probably pointless but it just shows you maybe clubs shouldn't focus to much on winning! Maybe i'm just being a baby about things but I am looking for a new club, and I would like to join one that focus's more on preparing people for competitions and not one that just expects you to be good!

Damo W

columok wrote:

I'm wondering did a whole bunch of TMA people way backl when who actually good fight somewhere along the way (and over a period of time) slide from functional to non-functional due to complacency and lack of urgency to stay focused on performance (say without competition or during peacetime)

Columok,

Can I have a shot at this..

I would suggest the exact opposite, that it was competition that caused the slide from functionality to less functionality.

Karate being the easily identifiable example of this...

Toudijutsu (as Chinese gongfu was then called) the precursor of many modern Karate interpretations included brutal applications, twisting bone, separating tendon away from it, joint-locks, pressure points (The early writings in the Bubishi) , take-downs, throws, grappling, and ground-work (see, S. Nagamine, book Conversations with karate masters, indicating the influence of ‘tegumi’ Okinawa’s indigenous wrestling style on Te/Ti), along with traumatizing anatomically vulnerable areas, and the seizing, digging and or gouging into those cavities unprotected by the skeletal structure.

When it was exported to mainland Japan, it under went a political and cultural reform, and was profoundly influenced by Japanese budo culture, one adaptation was the Judo, Kendo competition/scoring style this established a competitive (‘counterpart’) format so that its students could test both their spirit and technique.

This rule-bound sport phenomenon unfolded in the shobu-ippon image of kendo and judo, two half points-one full point, need less to say there was no room in this heavily rule bound environment for any grappling, throwing etc. etc.

In turn, training methods moved towards reaching this outcome of being proficient in ‘shobu ippon’ styled competition, as this became popularized through the world, in particular via the JKA through its instructor programme' (they had devised a strategy to send instructors all over the world to propagate this interpretation) it left behind a significant amount of functionality.

This could be the reason why many TMA’ers out there who seek the ‘old style’ teachings and applications dislike competition and do not partake in it.

The popularity of the competition enviromennt influence the training methods so much that complete systems now only train using shobu ippon training methods.

Damien

FYI, there are many classifications of early karate and some are used in an interchangeable fashion, below is a reasonable classification but as always not written in stone…

TI - PURELY INDIGENOUS OKINAWAN SYSTEMS
TOUDI - CHINESE INFLUENCED OKINAWAN SYSTEMS
KENPO - PURE CHINESE SYSTEMS
KARATE - MODERN PE SYSTEM E.G. ITOSU'S BRAINCHILD

john kavanagh

Ya sarky bastard.

i did mean to put a at the end of my last comment!

lets go back to your original questions, which is really the same question twice

Can an MMA club stay on track without entering into external competition?

Yes! the only thing required is Honesty.

now do guys who compete get 'better' faster than guys who don't compete?

of course! but who cares!!!

All 'competition' does is turbo charge your growth, but the road is long and in the end its only against yourself so whether you sprint there or jog who cares as long as you are smiling along the way

I would suggest the exact opposite, that it was competition that caused the slide from functionality to less functionality.

well i would qualify that by saying points fighting or kata competition certainly does but MMA competition is helping it come full circle and training is returning to functionality

Ok kav,

I agree with you about the different levels of development and the important thing being the rate of development. Some people need rapid skill development others just want a laugh. Cool.

I'm not strictly saying that the non-competitive approach is wrong or worse just different.

I'm just thinking out loud/wondering about the evolutionary arcs of clubs is all. And thinking about the evolution of the sport rather than better or worse.

i did mean to put a at the end of my last comment!

You'll pay. You'll pay alright. I've already loaded up photoshop.

Colum

Damo W

john kavanagh wrote:

well i would qualify that by saying points fighting or kata competition certainly does but MMA competition is helping it come full circle and training is returning to functionality

John,

Yes thats true, points fighting or kata competition does.

But all competition formats influences training methods!

'Helping it come full circle' is a heavy burden to place on the shoulders of MMA, indeed.

But are we talking about 'horse before the cart' styled syndrome...

[Info., At over 80 years of age, Master Kinjo Hiroshi (Master Kinjo was born in the Shuri district of Naha, Okinawa, in 1919) is regarded as one of Japan’s most respected authorities of Okinawa’s original old-style Karate]

Master Kinjo Hiroshi stated in an article reprinted in Irish Fighter. (If memory serves me correct, don’t have the edition at hand)

‘Look at Mr. Oyama’s personalized style of karate for example, it unfolded largely due to his personal dissatisfaction with what was then described as modern karate. Having been an honored guest in his home on several occasions nearly four decades ago, we discussed in great detail the development of Kyokushinryu. During those memorable occasions I discovered that, had he had the opportunity to learn an authentic application-based discipline rather than the rule-bound modern tradition, his efforts to find the truth may have very well taken him in a different direction’.

If we (TMA'ers) all had the oppertunity to learn as he puts it 'an authentic application-based discipline rather than the rule-bound modern tradition' would MMA be now so topical, who knows?

Would MMA training methods be so 'new'?

We can't say what could have been and shouldn't ponder on it

What can't be denied is that MMA has shaken TMA'ers, some in fear but hopefully most only 'up' .

At a minimun TMA'ers should not ignore it, and can if they wish learn so much from it.

Damien

john kavanagh

Would MMA training methods be so 'new'?

nothing new about MMA training methods - wrestling, thai, boxing etc around for very long time...it was just seeing the hand-on-the-hip-kia-masters get so soundly beat back in UFC1 has led to a huge revival of these methods amongst those who hadn't been exposed to them (me being one of them - All Ireland Kata Champion )

Damo W

john kavanagh wrote:

nothing new about MMA training methods - wrestling, thai, boxing etc around for very long time...it was just seeing the hand-on-the-hip-kia-masters get so soundly beat back in UFC1 has led to a huge revival of these methods amongst those who hadn't been exposed to them (me being one of them - All Ireland Kata Champion )

2nd Dan Kempo, Forms Champion, you should be doing TMA clinics

Musical Forms???? ...