Addictiveness, and when to stop..

Altheus

Right, I've been playing Hold 'em for about 2 years, mostly friendly events for little money (€5 or €10).

Once I got my credit card I went straight onto PaddyPowerPoker, and lodged €20.
This got me quite far, 10c games tend to... I was up to €28.
Then I start the 50c 1x1 games and did well, up to around €35
Then I decided, I'll play a €5 turbo 1x1, and won, so I'm at €39
Then I played a €10 turbo 1x1, and won, and beat the same guy over and over, till I was up to €80
Now, a wiser man than me would have walked away, but I just upped the ante, playing €20 games, Turbo 1x1 No-Limit. Lost one or two, won quite a few. Up to €160.
Then onto the €50, 1x1, up to €300 or so
Then onto the €100, €500
Then €200, 1x1, down to €300
Then €100, down to €200,
Then €50, down to €150,
Then €50, down to €100.
Then playing €20 games won a few, and lost a few, down to €80 overall.

I withdrew €30, and gambled the €50 on a game, and lost.

I was itching, so I deposit €50 thinking, well sure I'm up €30 anyway, lost it.
Now down €20, I deposit €50, lose it, another lost it...

Down €200

I deposit €50 again and decide to play low again starting on the €10s, making it back up €120 profit overall.

Not bad I thought.

Then the next day, I'm down €200 again.

Next day, up to the clear.

Now I'm about €40 down, but just wondering whether I should cut my losses or consider €40 not that expensive for the I don't know maybe 40 hours of intense showdowns?

Is it a mugs game to be playin the 1x1 tables?

Einstein

There's prob a few on here that can answer this better than I can. But from what I can gather reading around. If you're going to play online for real money you nees a bankroll and you need to work within a budget for that bankroll. For example, I think if you have a €50 roll, you don't enter games that cost more than 10 times the bankroll you have, in this case, it would be a fiver...catch my drift? Then as your bankroll and experience grows, you move up the ranks.

Make sense?

D..

Ste05

I was similar to you too when I started, always trying to increase my levels without the proper bankroll, but as the seasoned pro's on here and elsewhere will tell you, they live on people like us who are playing above their limits. The difference between a $5 SNG and a $200 is unbelievable, I'm no where near that level yet but I'd say it takes hundreds if not thousands of hours experience, with a solid understanding and read of the game to be able to compete at that level.

My advice for what its worth, is to stick to a lower level until you are making a good solid consistent profit at that level, then move up one level until you're at the same stage, crushing the game and so on, all the while building your bankroll, and improving your game.

It's alot easier to write it than do it, cos I still do the same as you and dip my toe in a level I shouldn't (normally after 10 pints and a kebab - when I'm at my peak - lol), but before long I get a rude awakening and scuttle back down to my own level.

Anyway Good luck at the tables, stick with it just don't over extend yourself.

Altheus

The only thing is that I'm not in it for the money, so to speak. I would like to win as much as the next man, but the standard on the lower tables, means that your usually playing against guys who are over-cautious.


€20 tables are probably my favourite level, reasonable betting, nothing crazy and some very entertaining games. €50 games are a gamble, and an expensive one.

Essentially if I want to play €20 tables, I'll need a bankroll of €200, when I hit €200 I then double the bankroll, or withdraw the money, so if I lost that €200, I'm back down to the €20 tables.

Ste05

Have you thought of playing some MTT's they're probably even better, I was the exact same as you til about 6 months ago - just messing around playing tournaments and the odd cash game, but then I won $1,000 playing a $30 multi tourney took half it out and used the rest of it as a Bankroll, and steadily built it up, same fun but with much better rewards if your on form and the cards go right for you??

Culchie

I think ste05 gave you great advice, and he also gave fair warning to you as well.

You want to play for fun, good for you. Wrong forum here though for advice.

Bankroll Management is critical.

pokertroll

Hey Altheus,

I've been there alright.

It is funny how you can lose respect for money once you start winning in this game and can up the limits without thinking..

My advice would be to set realistic limits for yourself. Keep records and prove that you can win at a particular level before you start moving up to the big $100 and $200 headsup games. Remember, it is real money that you are talking about here (I need to remind myself of this a lot)

Set yourself targets and cashout as soon as you make those targets and then start again with the same amount. If you can do this consistently then consider moving up to higher limits.You need to be disciplined.

I can't quite say I am nearly as disciplined at the moment as I'd like to me. My biggest problem is when I have a lot of money in my account. One thing that annoys me terribly about Paddy Power is the fact that you cannot cash out for 4 days after you win. Then it takes another couple of days for the money to get onto your credit card. In the time between, sometimes I can lose the plot completely in rebuy comps and cash games.

Generally I only deposit $100 at a time.
Last Saturday I had worked this up to $5k after getting a nice MTT win for $4k. Then I went absolutely ballistic in a cash game and lost over $1k in 2 sittings. (In fairness I had 2 very big hands cracked) I also lost a couple of a hundred in a $99 rebuy comp (tilt), something I would never have done had I less money in my account.

In the end I dropped about $1.5k in only a couple of days and this is when reality hit. What the fook was I at,spending that amount of money on poker?
It really hit home how important it is to be disciplined in this game. If you don't have the discipline, there is absolutely no point in taking the game seriously as you will be a loser.
With your bankroll ($40) , you should stick to the $5 or $10 stts (or maybe less) or maybe some of the lower entry MTTs.

Forget about headsup for now as the fluctuations are too high.

Altheus

Hmm, that all seems to be very good advice. I've noticed the fluctuations are quite high in 1x1s, although I've got 69% win record, I still have nothing to show for it.

I've played quite a few STTs usually at €5 max, due to one, my impatience on the board, and my lack of skill as regards betting on the bigger table. 1x1 is easier in many ways because you can bully. Maybe I should sit out the first few blinds, and play more patiently. I usually can get to the last 3 but I've a hard time ever recovering a small stack. I'd almost prefer to play a few live games before ever being too commital online, to read behaviour and such.

You're right though, I would never put €50 onto a table in a mates house for a 1x1, never mind not walk away with €500!

I'll start playing the freerolls, low buy-in STTs and some MTTs to see how far I get. Just glad to see I'm not alone!

Ardent

Good thread.

I put 20 quid in vc poker a few months back and built it up very quickly to 150 by playing .10/.20 cash games and $3 STTs. Then I lost leave of my senses, thinking I was great, and started playing $25 STTs, $1/$2 cash games and lost the lot and then some. Way above the level I was ready for.

The last 20 euros I put in I made a vow to myself to start small and only move up a level when I made enough money to do so. So, started at $3 STTs, started to consistently win those, moved on to $5 STTs, started winning a lot of those and I'm now well over the $200 mark. Soon I'll be moving to the $10 tables and so forth.

Start small, be disciplined and work your way up is my advice. For a lot of us, this is only a past time, an alternative to playing Pro Evolution Soccer or whatever, and we don't want to lose what we can't afford.

Doc Farrell

good replies.
as much as I would like to move up levels I need to make a certain amount of money each month from this game to keep me interested. so i tend to play low limit cash games were people like to gamble. i also play in very cheap sats to very expensive games and occasionally win which can be a lot of fun and a good return for 2 dollars.
as regarding the subject of addiction then would think that if u are losing more than 5-10% of your income a week then one has a serious problem.

unfortunately u can be a winning player and still be addicted but it isnt as painful. most addicts have an obsessive personality, that is they will continue practicing a vice until they have exhausted themselves.
this may be bad advice but it works for me; if u find that you are spending too much time hunched over low limit games with bloodshot eyes then find another subject to get obsessive about. for me at the moment its natural history and I'm hoping to do a scuba diving course real soon.

but its a difficult question to give an honest answer to unless ur losing money in which case it's easy.

i still don't like the amount of time i spend playing cards.

roryc

i'm still arsing about at 5c/10c and 10c/20c games, purely because the max you can bring to the table is $20 and $40, and it wouldn't bother me if I lost that. I don't see myself moving up for a while because I don't see PPP as a money source, just somewhere to go to relieve boredom. If I moved up i would take it more seriously and get really annoyed with the ridiculous hands that hit all the time. I also play the small buy-in MTT's and ive had a lot of success there in the last week.

I can see your point how you can lose respect for money. So easy....

califano

i think 1x1 games are far too volative to be playing as a means for increasing your bankroll. i have cut down on playing these since i started a stt spreadsheet a few days ago. i mainly play $25 stt's but i play the very occasional $50 and $100 stt's. looking at the spreadhheet i was pleased to see i was up overall on the stt's and in one rich vein of form i monied in 6 out of 7 stt's. what happened then was that i finished out of the money in the next 2 stt's and felt i needed to play a heads up game before i finished out of the money again. i needed to see another money entry on the spreadsheet.
today i played a $100 stt and trebled up at the very start and absolutely crushed the field until it was heads up with me being holding over 70% of the chips. to cut a long story short i lost and finished 2nd winning $270. now i didnt see it as me winning $270 i seen it as me losing $180. so i played 2 heads up games to get back the money i should have won and managed to do it but i know this is kinda crazy. i know the way to go is to stick to the plan and thats to play constantly and without deviation to the games and limits that suit you. so i think unless you and i do this its just going to be constantly fluctuating fortunes. i need more discipline and i think its actually good to hear some of the better players like pokertroll admitting that they also need more discipline and dont always practice good book keeping, makes me feel more normal.

smurph

This is a very interesting and good thread. I found with online poker that I lodge $150 a month. If I have a good month yepee. If I however a "bad run" and loose the all my money, I don't lodge anything until the next month. It doesn't matter what stage of the month i.e. loose all my money on 10th August, tough t*tty nothing going into account until September.

I adopt even stricter parameters when im playing in Casinos. We all remember the big weekends, big wins, but forget very easily the bad nights. When myself and Martin are going to the Fitz we take a note of exactly how much money have going into the club with and what we leave with. Kept an account for a year and it is showed some surprising results. People often talk about a bad run of cards, and I can see a definite pattern in my Account. I had a two month spell where I couldn't win an argument, so I took a month off, regenerated got my head together and went back full of optimism and it seemed to help. I used to go into the Fitz too many nights aswell, and have cut down to maybe twice a week (except when the Festival was on).

There was a very good point made in one of the threads about the value of money. Sometimes I sit down at the cash games with €200 - €300 in front of me. When they are in chip form you nearly forget they are cash. I would shop around for bargains, be in food or clothes etc., but as soon as you walk through the door of the Casino the value of the money seems less. Gambling can be highly addictive and needs to be monitored. We have all done it, had a win and moved up a level to get a bigger pot. (Im usually found hovering round the €100 game with big wide eyes wishing I was playing at the table) But a big dose of reality hits me and I know I could not live with that level of money.

On another note does anyone else here feel that the €50 games in the Fitz club are getting bigger and bigger money wise. Before there was never any problem sitting down with €50 in front of you. Now when you sit at the table alot of the stacks starting off are €200 upwards?

Samba

rounders123 wrote:

i think 1x1 games are far too volative to be playing as a means for increasing your bankroll

I would have to disagree with this strongly, however to win them consistently takes great amounts of discipline, players who are very skilled at reading the game tend to have an edge over other players in 1v1, another problem is people tend to think too much about the money at 200/500 level and it greatly influences their game.

Find out what area of poker you excel in and stick to that, for me that is 1v1 play which is all I play nowadays, results at the end of the month.

In relation to the addictive aspect of poker, gambling in itself is addictive this addiction can be broken down further.

From reading your post it looks like you are chasing, chasing is a part of gambling addiction and people can actually become addicted to chasing loss.

Some people get addicted to the high etc.

A vital part of poker is to learn to accept loss, if you cannot accept loss and move on, you are constantly going to be thinking about winning your money back as opposed to winning money, in both scenarios people tend to have two very different mindsets and trying to win money back, people can get desperate and tilt with just a slight nudge to the shoulder.

It is vital that at all times when you sit down at the table that you have the mindset of someone who wishes to make money not chase it, If you feel you cannot deal with the loss and you are still thinking about wanting to win money "back". I would suggest you think seriously about whether you want to continue playing, regardless of the fact that it may be for fun as you will develop an addiction to chasing loss and that can have devastating consequences.

califano

yeah good points. yeah i have been a bit of a chaser i'll admit that its my heel to chase on 1x1 games. im disciplined in that i never play cash games live or online and when im at a casino i would never dream of slipping into the games section for the blackjack or roulette i wouldnt even be tempted. im glad 1x1 games work well for you but i realise these are the games that i lose on overall. the excel spreadsheet i have created recently for stt's has helped me concentrate on these and to largely drop the 1x1 play and im actually enjoying the challenge of competing in these and logging my results.

Altheus

Samba wrote:

I would have to disagree with this strongly, however to win them consistently takes great amounts of discipline, players who are very skilled at reading the game tend to have an edge over other players in 1v1, another problem is people tend to think too much about the money at 200/500 level and it greatly influences their game....

I was thinking that a major flaw in my playing 1x1s was my strategy. Generally I'd lose all my winnings in the last 45 minutes of play, following about 7-8 hours of chip building.

I think that I definitely was affected by a few factors. One was when I was short stacked (about 600) and the blinds hit 300/600, I'd regain my composure and chips and rely on luck to get me through, I tended not to work the flops, turn or river, just blind gambling.

As far as the money is concerned, I began to get the feeling I was playing to regain a debt, and my play suffered. Usually I use the small blinds to lure big pots, win and fold out till they go up enough to start bullying. I'd lose concentration and just bite every raise till the turn with something A4o, 4 6 9, and miss obvious plays. The lack of confidence generally meant that I'd fold out on the river, lose a lot of chips and expose the weak hand.

As for the money, well, I can afford to lose it, however it's the feeling that I'll do only that if I can't stay disciplined, and on top of that the volatility of the odds.

I'm going to start logging everything, errors, cash in, cash out, the hands etc.

At the minute I've got well over 15000 "Paddy Points" so I'm going to use the Freerolls to try and establish myself on a 9 seater table, and hopefully get my balance back up. I played a few 10c STTs, placed 1st in 5 and 2nd in 3, came 4th in one when I lost AAA to 44AAA.

I don't feel confident though playing the tables, I cant stand Limit, so I stick to NoLimit, and then I cant stand the guys who'll bet 400 on everything, to hard to call, if they're doing it every chance they get they always end up catching an all-in somewhere.

I'm going to call it day with cash in till the end of the month, and strictly play sub $1 tables to get my STT/MTT games up to scratch, then I'm going to split a $50, $25 Tables / $25 1x1, keep good track of my progress on both and set my cash out level to $200.

Dub13

This is the old system I used to use all the time,copyed from an old post because I am to lazy to type it again.I think this system could be good for you.



I start playing $5 S&Gs and will not move up ontill I have 9 times the buy in at the next level so when I have 9 x $10 I move up and so on.I use this system even if I dont have to (say if I have a load of cash in an account) as its a good way to get used to building up a bankroll.It can be slow and sometimes you have to drop down a level but it works for me.

When I get to the $25/$30 level I will cash out when I have about 500 and leave $45/50 ( 9 x $5) and start again.

It is a grind....but it will improve your game,you just have to have patience and try to keep track of your results.And dont be tempted to jump up a level because you have a big win in a cash game....as this defies the whole point.Look at moving up levels like you were a football team moving up divisions,only in this system when you get to the top division you get relegated back down to the bottom

califano

Dub13 is the new minister for finance. seriously fair play to you for that sort of discipline.
also fair play to musician who recently got made