On the bubble with QQ! what to do!

Imposter

So i'm playing my second ever live tournament and somehow (after one idiotic play, although it was during the rebuy period) I'm still in and we're on the bubble.

It's a 50€ game with 1 rebuy and 1 Add-on. Play has been a pretty good standard, especially since the Rebuy period ended.

9 places pay. 4k prize pool. Prizes are (all approx) 1200, 650, 450, 350, 300 250, 210, 190, 170.

So 5 on table (10 left) and I have QQ. Blinds are 400/800 ante 50. Blinds have just risen to this level too.

-First to act folds. She had about 2.5k in chips
-I've got a stack of about 5k.
-The button has about 9k and was bullying but only the really short stacks. Otherwise he's been pretty quiet.
-The SB has been playing pretty loose. Limping when possible with anything and bluffing at pots whenever he gets a chance. He has about 8k in chips.
-The BB has about 2k left after the 600 for the blind.

The other table has one monster stack (probably about 25k) 2 average stacks and 2 smallish stacks but those on my table were probably smaller.

What do I do with my QQ?
Options that I can see:
-Fold
-call
-raise to 2k (fold to a reraise, if no reraise go all-in if no A or K hits flop, if called)
-all-in
Thoughts?

accensi0n

Since the blinds have gone up it will be costing you 1450 per round. You only have 6 BB's left at this stage. It's time to go all in and hopefully double up or just take the blinds which are a substantial amount at this stage.

smurph

accensi0n wrote:

Since the blinds have gone up it will be costing you 1450 per round. You only have 6 BB's left at this stage. It's time to go all in and hopefully double up or just take the blinds which are a substantial amount at this stage.

I agree with this. Take the stand now and hope to take the blinds. If lower that Q flops you cannot let anyone in who might fill e pair or something else. I would rather make a stand with QQ rather that AJ or AQ. But thats me.

Shortstack

If you have been dealt the third best starting hand on a 5 handed table at that stage of the tournament with that many chips then you must go all in. You cannot contemplate folding if you raise and are re-raised. If you run into KK/AA then you are very unlucky. If you are called by Ax and lose you are unlucky. But you absolutely cannot pass up an opportunity to double up.

BTW I am presuming because you posted it you lost the hand?

Hitman Actual

As far as I can see, you want to be all-in pre-flop here. Folding is obviously not an option. I think limping is only good if you think someone else will push. Same for a raise, but limping probably has a better chance of getting someone to push. In saying that, you've only 6 BBs, so you might as well push yourself. There's a decent chance that you'll get called because other players will put you on a wide hand range (because you're short-stacked), and if that happens you'll probably be up against a hand that the QQ will like. I dont think the fact that you're on the bubble here really matters.

ollyk1

Raise 2.5k myself. All-in if reraised.

Edit:

Seems people are giving reasons for their play so mine are - I want a caller and I want the BB to think I'm picking on him and maybe call with Axs or hopefully TJs! If you run into a reraise from the big stack it could be AK/AA/KK it could also be QQ, JJ or even TT 99 if he thinks you have AK and the like. You'll be acting before him post flop so if he flat calls go all-in unless the flop comes with AK (then I might think about it...but I might still go all-in).

Folding is not an option. Calling is not an option unless you have an exceptional read on the BB that he's going all-in (but he will still call you if he was going all-in because he's getting so short so I really don't like calling here.)

accensi0n

lenny_leonard wrote:

dont think the fact that you're on the bubble here really matters.

Exactly.

Just because your on the bubble and there are some stacks shorter than yours left doesn't mean you should try and just slip into the money, especially with a hand as strong as QQ.

Imposter

lenny_leonard wrote:

In saying that, you've only 6 BBs,

But there are 2 shorter stacks than me at my table and the person in the BB next has to make a move very soon.

because you're short-stacked)...
I dont think the fact that you're on the bubble here really matters.

Again i think there's 2 shorter stacks on my table and possibly 2 on the other table too.

The pay structure is also quite flat here, surely that must come into it? Even if I double up, then i'm still a long way from 1st or 2nd Vs the risk I take in bubbling out!

Samba

accensi0n wrote:

Exactly.

Just because your on the bubble and there are some stacks shorter than yours left doesn't mean you should try and just slip into the money, especially with a hand as strong as QQ.

If you had a hand like 22/33 in this situation a fold is plausible but as said you cannot pass up this hand or even consider folding. Play to win.

I have been in a similar situation with AK before on the bubble, I opted to fold to an all in re-raise from the chip leader, yes i limped in to the money and got 4th but had I played the hand.... i would have at least had a shot of winnning the tourney, i was blinded out eventually.

NickyOD

How can you not move all in here? Ignore the bubble.

Dave

You've also got to look at the possibilty that one of the shorter stacks is going to make a move and possibly double up, so where would that leave your strategy. You really can't throw away QQ in this situation.

Hitman Actual

ollyk1 wrote:

Raise 2.5k myself. All-in if reraised.

Edit:

I want a caller and I want the BB to think I'm picking on him and maybe call with Axs or hopefully TJs!

The only problem I see with this is that the BB knows that you're pot-commited as you've only 2.5K left. So he's basically playing for 5K of his stack, which I doubt he'll want to do. If you push, you might get called by a wider range of hands. If you dont get called, at least you're picking up nearly 1.5K with no risk, although obviously you want the call.

Edit: Sorry Olly, just noticed that the BB has only 2K, I see where you're coming from now.

Lafortezza

I'd be more tempted to make a small/medium raise in this situation. With QQ (as Shortstack said the 3rd best-ish hand), you *want* action from a player gambling with A9o or KJ or something. If you push and everyone folds then thats a pretty good waste of a premium hand.

I'd raise instead of moving all-in.

Waylander

I'd agree with the general concensus of all in here. Need to double up and you are unlikely to get a better hand the QQ in the next couple of rounds 5 handed.

ollyk1

Again i think there's 2 shorter stacks on my table and possibly 2 on the other table too.

So bully them!! Otherwise you are playing like dead money. I'd be raising here with ** for fúck sake . Do you want to win 100-200 or 1150 net??

Your position and stack size means your chips have to be worth €300 easy in tournament value but only if you are prepared to play. I have to laugh at all the guys tightening up on the bubble and folding AT and the like in good positon and then going all-in straight away on the final table with A7o at a full final table of 9. Plus the difference of having maybe 8000-9000 in chips at the final table if the BB calls and loses will be massive at the final table. You can they take a 60/40 flip with a deperate short stack at the final table and really get motoring.

All-in might scare the BB I want him to call and I want everyone else to know i'm commited to the hand hence 2500 - but I'm open to other ways of playing it.

Lafortezza

Which would give you more chance of doubling up, all-in or a raise that pot commits you? Which is more likely to get the action you want (of getting all-in pre-flop or on the flop)?

Hitman Actual

Imposter wrote:

But there are 2 shorter stacks than me at my table and the person in the BB next has to make a move very soon.


Again i think there's 2 shorter stacks on my table and possibly 2 on the other table too.

The pay structure is also quite flat here, surely that must come into it? Even if I double up, then i'm still a long way from 1st or 2nd Vs the risk I take in bubbling out!

It sounds like you're considering folding QQ here, which I dont think could be correct. You have a very short stack and a hand that gives you an excellent chance of doubling up, so I think you need to play it in whatever way you can to get the money all-in as a favourite.

Fair enough, I do see what you're saying about the other short stacks, and I'd love to see an equity calculation here. (But I'm definately not good enough to do it!).

ollyk1

lafortezza wrote:

Which would give you more chance of doubling up, all-in or a raise that pot commits you? Which is more likely to get the action you want (of getting all-in pre-flop or on the flop)?

I think since the 9k stack has the button he might call 2500 knowing he has position and that you are pot commited. i.e. if he hits his Ax hand he'll win 5k plus blinds because you'll probably have to call or go all-in on the flop with the size of the pot. With the blinds being 1,200 if the big stack calls you they probably fold now unless they wake up with PP 9's or higher or AK, AQ and maybe AJs so therefore you end up with 3,700 of other peoples money in the pot and hopefully the flop treats you right and you take it down by going all-in or the BB hits his kicker (TJ or the like and you make some real money.)

By going all-in you are not giving anyone odds or even close to odds unless they are beating you. Plus if you are playing as tight as the original poster seems to be suggesting I'd lay down JJ TT in the big stacks position to your all-in...now if it was you Luke on the other hand....

Lafortezza

At a short handed and a short stacked table situation like the one described in the first post you should treat QQ like they were the bullets, you should be trying to think of the best way to get someone all-in with you.

ollyk1

So how much do you raise Lafortezza*? BigD*? everyone else*?



*Just for interest sake you understand

Lafortezza

2.4k, and push all-in on the blind.

jem

I would raise here about 1500. That way the bb would assume that you are trying to buy the pot and come over the top all in you can the , the button will probably fold of just call, small blind probable call or fold, u can then either call the reraise or go all in depending on whether there is more than BB in pot.
Likelyhood that you will get most amount of chips in the centre with this type of raise as opposed to an all in which might scare everyone out of pot.
With QQ short handed you want as many as possible in pot without making it too cheap for the limper with sh1t cards to hit lucky.

JuliusFranco

bubble smubble

you need to double up, it's really a no brainer with the 3rd (or 4th) best hand starting hand. folding is not an option...a stop and go might be the way

the only way folding would be an option is if there were really short stacks on both tables and there was a v flat payout structure like top 9 get tickets etc

play to win my man

eye of the tiger

grrrrr

Imposter

Yes Mike I lost. But not in the way any of you are thinking

My thinking at the time was that, I have to make money from this hand but i'd prefer not to race here if I could.
I think the flatish payout structure has to play a part in my decision too.

All of the four options went through me head.
Folding:
It's an option but as has been said I really have to make money from this hand.

Calling:
Definitely an option imo.
If the button raises me all-in i'm not sure what to do. He definitely would have a decent hand. I'd probably be ahead but it could also be a race. Just calling here leaves me the option to fold if i'm put all-in. I'm not saying I would fold but it'd definitely be an option.
The SB would be likely to come over the top if he has anything resembling a hand here. A bad hand I reckon he'd fold. I like the idea of him raising me.
The BB would be likely to go all-in if it's just me and him. Otherwise he'll check or fold without a very good hand.

Raising to 2k:
I'd not raise any higher as then i'd definitely be pot commited. If a flop came with an A or a K and the SB or the button came along i'd have to be worried. If only the BB in the hand then he'd be all-in. I'd probably have to call a reraise from anyone preflop but wouldn't be happy against the button. If a low board comes and i'm against SB or Button i'd have to go all-in. If SB checks flop after a K or an A i'd be beaten but surely I have to bet here.

Raising All-in:
This will probably either win the blinds or get the BB all-in with me. I'm not sure i'd be happy with just the blinds and the BB was doing his best not to get busted.

In the end I called. Button folded, SB called and BB checked.
Flop came 7, 8, 9 rainbow. SB thought for a sec and went all-in, BB folded.
BB probably had me on 2 big unpaired cards. I put him at a pair at best, as if he'd 2 pair or better i'm pretty sure he'd have checked. So I called and he had 62. A 5 hit on the turn.

I'm surprised he completed the BB with that hand but that and the outdraw is poker I suppose.:(

Lafortezza

No offence but I think you played it quite badly. It's 5 handed, the likelyhood of one of the other 4 players waking up with a hand better than your QQ is slim. You could easily get action from A10 or KJ or 99 or a gambler with 67s, all of which you are ahead of. You shouldn't even be considering folding QQ in this situation.

If the button raises me all-in i'm not sure what to do. He definitely would have a decent hand. I'd probably be ahead but it could also be a race.

The only hand you could possibly be racing against is AK.

I put him at a pair at best, as if he'd 2 pair or better i'm pretty sure he'd have checked. So I called and he had 62. A 5 hit on the turn.

I'm surprised he completed the BB with that hand but that and the outdraw is poker I suppose.

He wouldn't have called if you raised pre-flop.

DapperGent

Personally I'd limp. Push if raised preflop.

If nobody raises you preflop: Push any flop (including A K x ) if checked to by the blinds. Slowplay a set if you get lucky. Use your judgement on the best way to get all in with someone if the flop comes down with no aces or kings.

Given all the factors I'd really be playing risky poker in the hopes or a double or treble through.

bohsman

Youve got 6bbs left the only thing you can do is go all in. Once you go below 10bbs you need to be pushing once a round to avoid being blinded away, also the fact its the bubble means the weak players will fold a lot more,

On the one hand youre contemplating folding but on the other you limp in because you wouldnt be happy with just the blinds???

Imposter

lafortezza wrote:

No offence but I think you played it quite badly.

No offence taken. The reason I posted was to get other's opinions.

The only hand you could possibly be racing against is AK.

Sorry, what I meant was i'd be against an A or a K and not neccesarily both. I'd be favourite but could easily fold the best hand on a flop with one of those cards.

He wouldn't have called if you raised pre-flop.

This is what I kept telling myself on the drive home but i'm not so sure I played it that badly when I think about it today. That's why I posted looking for other's opinions.

Imposter

bohsman wrote:

On the one hand youre contemplating folding but on the other you limp in because you wouldnt be happy with just the blinds???

I never seriously contemplated it preflop. But with an A or a K on the flop I'd have to strongly consider it.

Culchie

If an A or K had fell on the flop, and he moved all-in, would you have called?

It would have put you in a very difficult position.

Make him make the decision for all his chips, rather than you.

Put the ball into his court.

Shortstack

Now reading how you played I have to agree with Luke and say that you played it terribly wrong. If you do not raise with a pocket pair you deserve to have them cracked by 5 2o. It may seem harsh but if you limp you have no idea where you are on the flop (although I would have felt safe on a AAK flop as he did not raise). The only time it is worthwile limping with a big pocket pair is UTG in a full 9/10 handed game. Even then if no-one bites and raises then you should play it very slow post flop. Nothing gives me more pleasure in life than cracking a big pair that is played wrong

DapperGent

I think you played it well and were a favourite to double through rather than just getting the blinds. Unlucky.

ollyk1

Imposter that was horrible. I'm not trying to offend you and I think the key problem here was that it is was a live game which you aren't used to playing.

It's not even 5 handed as the utg short stack has folded! A min raise would have got rid of the SB and isolated you heads up. If not and he had called it may have been sufficient to stop the SB going all in post flop as he'd look to see if he gets a free turn card with his straight draw and you'd go all-in and he'd fold.

If this hand was online and you'd only spent 1-2 hours to get to this stage of the tournament you'd have raised or gone all-in. i understand it's a bigger commitment to go and play live (time wise and energy wise). People become very emotionally invested in seeing a return on a live night of poker, but you need to use that to your advantage not theirs.

The SB was playing for half price with huge implied odds because no one sees 62o coming and then he thought you guys were playing very weak so he went on a semi-bluff - good bubble/tournament play. If you end up playing that live tournament regularly you'll end up looking back on this post and cringing.


Luke I forgot about the going all-in blind on the flop move - absolute classic!

Imposter

Culchie wrote:

If an A or K had fell on the flop, and he moved all-in, would you have called?

Against the SB I probably would have called. He'd been bluffing on scare cards all evening and I think he would have raised preflop with an Ax and possibly Kx. Against the BB i'd have folded. He was way too tight and was trying to limp into the money.

DapperGent

ollyk1 wrote:

Imposter that was horrible. I'm not trying to offend you and I think the key problem here was that it is was a live game which you aren't used to playing.

I dunno. If he has any ambitions of winning the tournament I think he has to be aiming to double through on this hand, winning the blinds simply isn't good enough. It's nasty risky but limping gives him the best chance of doing this. Any preflop raiser is pot commited when he gets reraised and is probably dominated if it gets to postflop the at least one of the blinds is likely to push on any pair/any draw and again they're dominated.

The most likely outcome of a push is winning the blinds when shortstacked and 5 handed that's a misuse of QQ.

ollyk1

If he has any ambitions of winning the tournament I think he has to be aiming to double through on this hand, winning the blinds simply isn't good enough

.

That's why I wouldn't go all-in but I would raise. If I'm in the SB and a call like that has happened and the SB is a short stack I'm calling every day of the week with 67, 78, 89, 77, 88, 99 all hands that are going to cause him a world of pain and then slowplaying the flop and calling his all-in post flop (which he has to do). He hasn't defined his hand by limping in - sure by raising you may not get called but that's poker.

QQ could be the best hand a player could see all night but so what? Going for the win does not mean slowplaying - never slowplay in my opinion unless you are a player capable of laying down AA on a 2,4,5 flop. I am not

NickyOD

If this was early in the tournament where chip accumulation was more important. I don't mind smooth calling a raise from a shortstack with a big pair.

In this situation though that is not your priority. You want to bust the player in the BB who is almost at the point of calling with any 2, and you want isolation with a big pair. If you had the SB covered then I like your move but in this situation I think its just not clever. I don't think its a terrible play though. HL.

Shortstack

DapperGent wrote:

I dunno. If he has any ambitions of winning the tournament I think he has to be aiming to double through on this hand, winning the blinds simply isn't good enough. It's nasty risky but limping gives him the best chance of doing this. Any preflop raiser is pot commited when he gets reraised and is probably dominated if it gets to postflop the at least one of the blinds is likely to push on any pair/any draw and again they're dominated.

The most likely outcome of a push is winning the blinds when shortstacked and 5 handed that's a misuse of QQ.

The likely outcome of letting two players see the flop cheap is that you get outdrawn. There is 1450 in the middle if your preflop raise takes that risk free then all well and good. If it induces a reraise and you win/lose all well and good ( from a 'how it was played point of view).

The point I am trying to make is that you must make people pay when you are ahead or you face paying when you are behind. Also just because the big blind folded after the flop does not mean he would not have tangled preflop, he had 25% of his chips committed almost.

You do want to double up anytime you get a pocket pair like queens but you need to do it in a manner that wins the most over time and that is getting heads up or winning the blinds.

Hectorjelly

I think you played it fine. You are so shortstacked that you arent really risking much by limping in. On the flop you got all in with someone as a 2:1 favourite. Happy days. Just winning the blinds with QQ in that spot isnt much of an achievement. The fact that you got outdraw is imaterial.

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

The fact that you got outdraw is imaterial.

Hardly.

If he pushes he can increase is stack by 23% or about 65% if the BB calls. The advantage of doubling up here over that just isn't big enough to justify playing the hand that way when there are shortstacks about to bust, especially with the flattish payout structure.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

Hardly.

Yes it is. If he got all in preflop with AT and AT won you wouldnt consider that he misplayed the hand would you? No, you would consider it a job well done. What happens after all the money goes in makes no difference. In this case he goes his money in as a 2:1 favourite, so a job well done and end of analysis.

This shortstacked just winning the blind with a hand this strong is a disastor. You should be aiming to double up and then try and win, not just survive until the money. I personally wouldnt flat call because I am so aggressive in these situations that I would be afraid a flat call would arouse situation.