DeCSS, Backups of legally purchased DVD's and Irish Law?

Inquitus

I routinely backup my DVD's due to my 1 year old daughters propensity for destroying them at every opportunity.

I DeCSS them using the Likes of DVD Decrypter and either save them to HD or shrink them to fit a single layer DVD.

Anyways I purchased Season 4 of the Tv Drama 24 the other day and noted that it had a UK warning at the start that stated that it was illegal to crack the copyright encryption on the DVD, whether I owned it or not. Is this also true here in Ireland? and whatever happened to Fair Use? Even itunes allows you to make 5 copies of a tune FFS!

Inqui

maidhc

Interesting question.

THe backup of something which is not a computer program is not explicity provided for. However computer program is so vaguely defined the fact a DVD is digital and accepts input (menu) and gives output may be sufficient for it to be considered a program. Then again it might also be a database within the definition

If the above is the case, then under section 374 it would have been permissable to break the drm, but for Mary Harney amending the law by Statutory Instrument (implementing an EU directive) to provide for some nonsense way of requesting the rightsholder to provide the key, and go to the high court (like anyone will, idea brought to you by Large Media Inc.). Even under the amended section it is amatter of construction as to whether breaking the DRM is permissable or not.

However there may be an implied term in the contract of sale that in order to make use of DVD it is necessary for you to back it up. The inclusion on DRM, even crappy DRM like CSS will militate against this.

There is no definitive answer. You cant say it is definately legal, but you certainly cant say it is illegal, although a media company will beg to differ.

Maybe someone else will have a vastly different view, but until I hear of a defnitive judgment by the High Court I wont feel particularly troubled about the issue.

Khannie

My view is totally non-legal:

I reckon it doesn't matter if it's illegal or not. There isn't a media company in the world that'll bring you to court for backing up stuff that you have paid for legally. Imagine the negative press!

Also, I have great faith in Irish judges. I reckon if it did make it as far as court that they would laugh it out (remember, it's the judges that make the law, not the lawmakers ).

daveirl

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maidhc

IRMA says != the law
Oireachtas + Courts say == the law

Khannie's view is pretty much that of every common sense individual I think.

chorus techy

I think I remembering seeing somewhere that it is illegal to actually crack the CSS coding at all, whether or not the reason for doing so is legitimate (ie. backing up DVDs) or illegitimate. So even by backing it up, you technically are breaking the law. Could be wrong though...

Orion

daveirl wrote:

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IRMA say a lot of things and not a hell of a lot of them are backed up by actual facts, common sense or decency. :rolleyes:

There are provisions for fair use in Irish law. I'm too lazy atm to go searching for it but if you're bothered just search the archives in this forum.

To answer the original question I back Khannie on this. I back up my dvds and cds as well. If anyone wants to take me to court on it they are quite welcome to but no judge in the land would convict anyone for backing up their own property for their own personal use.

daveirl

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Khannie

Yeah, there was a fair bit of debate about the existence of "fair use" under Irish law. Defo on this forum too. Is there a legal forum somewhere?

edit: google linkage for hits on boards

Laguna

The "law" that states it is illegal to backup up a DVD that you legally own for your own use is a load of ****. Not only does it contradict your statutory rights there is no basis for their claim, you are quite entitled to backup your discs as long as you don't lend them to anyone. It's like the whole debate about videoing films off of the telly, that's just as illegal as shoplifting the film but everyone does it. I say de-css to your hearts content and I fully support the use of

AnyDVD
DVDShrink
CloneDVD

The big companies are only sour now because their stranglehold on consumerism is faltering (don't worry, they'll get their power back when DVD is replaced by Blu-Ray)

Khannie

I've emailed the "Copyright Association of Ireland". Let's get this one sorted once and for all......

savemejebus

I was talking to a guy that mass produces cd's (legally) in germany and he told me that in Germany fair use applies as long as you don't alter the original file, i.e compress or de css it when making the copy. If you change the file in any way then it's not fair use and is an illegal copy. He could have been talkin through his arse but if he's correct then maybe that could be where fair use goes in the future (Germany being EU bigwigs and all)

daveirl

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maidhc

I think this thread would be more at home in the "Digital Rights" forum.

For those too lazy to find it, the Copyright & Related Rights Act is here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000_28.html

We have the concept of fair dealing rather than fair use. Terms can also be implied into a contract of sale which give rights over and above those specified in the legislation in certain circumstances.

Laguna

I'm saying it IS legal to backup your DVD's. I'm basing it on the statutory rights that exist for the most part in the western world. I'm from England and I know what I've said is applicable to the UK due to the group in place to protect consumers, Trading standards. Ireland is a different kettle of fish altogether as you don't have a trading standards committee as such and therefore have less rights consumer wise than you do in England. So all in all, when the chap above me gets his email replym then you'll know

Orion

Khannie wrote:

I've emailed the "Copyright Association of Ireland". Let's get this one sorted once and for all......

hehehe Good luck with that - it's a front for the record companies no matter what they say.

Orion

daveirl wrote:

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It's there. I've read the applicable law. But I'm drunk atm so I'm not searching. If I've time tomorrow I'll look it up (and this time I'll bookmark it for the next time this comes up )

aidan_walsh

Thats nice. I'm sure many of the record companies have much of a say over DVD sales.

Pedantics rule supreme. I know of course that they are (mainly) all owned by the same companies as the DVD distributors are.

maidhc

hehehe Good luck with that - it's a front for the record companies no matter what they say.

I never heard of them, but their website suggests they are no EFF anyway.

Cabaal

daveirl wrote:

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Are you 100% sure??
Slysoft the makers of AnyDVD, CloneDVD and CloneCD operate out of Mallow in Cork :eek:
I'd imagine their;s a reason their now operating out of their and still in business

http://www.slysoft.com/en/
See bottom of the site
This service is brought to you by SlySoft Europe Ltd., MALLOW, CORK, Ireland.

maidhc

Whois suggests that the domain is registered in Antigua and Barbuda in the Carribean!

It is legal to backup computer programs anyhow.

savemejebus

maidhc wrote:

It is legal to backup computer programs anyhow.

Is it legal to 'go around' or remove their copy protection though?

Laguna

Whoever said it is illegal to rip a cd to your HDD is talking out of their arse!. Using an iPod with that statement applicable makes you a hardcore criminal then..

Malafus

Heh, I've argued this before... ripping any music or video CD or DVD is illegal in Ireland. There is a law prohibiting this. It's retarded, but it exists. The copyright laws in Ireland are so obsolete, it's not even funny. If you rip a CD to your PC to play on an mp3 player, you have broken copyright law in this country. If you make a 1:1 copy of a CD/DVD, you have ALSO broken copyright law.

In most countries it is legal to make 1:1 backups, but not to alter files. In this country, you can do SFA with any intellectual property you have bought.
But, in the Court of Common Sense, no judge would punish you for backing up your property.

Edit: Laguna: Yep, pretty much. There were articles about this in the papers about 6 months ago, or maybe a year ago. I forget. Either way, it was specifically stated that the only legal way to use an iPod, or any mp3 player, was to purchase the mp3s off iTunes or any other legit online music seller.

maidhc

ripping any music or video CD or DVD is illegal in Ireland

Thats a very broad statement to make. Please give some evidence apart from that of Mr. Doyle of IRMA, he doesnt get to decide what is illegal or otherwise. I think you are thinking of an article in the Sunday Business Post where the ever so intelligent Adrian Weckler gave Doyle free rein to talk nonsense. Here: http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2005/01/16/story1587.asp

Our copyright legislation dates back to 2000 so its not that obsolete. Dont wish for a new Act, because you can be sure it wont be better than we already have.

Orion

Malafus wrote:

Heh, I've argued this before... ripping any music or video CD or DVD is illegal in Ireland. There is a law prohibiting this.

*yawn*

Link the law. :rolleyes:

Malafus

Ok, fair enough, I should not have said that in every circumstance, it's illegal. That was a fault on my part.
a) I'm not going to link the law, because I couldn't be arsed finding it.
b) I was on the other side of the argument, I tried to make points for fair use, but the person I was arguing against brought up laws and highlighted individual sections which counter the fair use argument. His debate was nigh on flawless, and it IS illegal, in Ireland, to rip music to your PC. Generally speaking. There may be specific exceptions, but "I'm just making a backup/It's for my mp3 player" is not one of them.

Oh, and 1)that's not the article, 2)I am aware the law is from 2000, but it was obsolete when it was introduced and 3) yes, you are probably right, new copyright laws will probably be worse. I don't really care about the current state of Irish copyright law because who's going to know or care if I rip stuff to my computer.

I could attempt to debate further but I'm tired. And I don't care anymore.

blorg

The law in question is here: http://www.gov.ie/bills28/acts/2000/a2800.pdf

Making a copy without the permission of the copyright holder is an infringement.

"Fair dealing" is allowed for two purposes: (1) research or private study, or (2) criticism. This is very similar to the law in the UK.

It is unclear that copying from a CD onto an iPod falls within either of these two exceptions. The key issue seems to be whether doing this would "unreasonably prejudice the interests of the owner of the copyright". You or I might say that it does not "unreasonably prejudice" but hey, the copyright owner would probably prefer that you buy the thing again in the new format, no?