Academic Woes

LegacyUser

Boy, do I regret not knuckling down better during my undergrad years.

Essentially, I am lucky in that I know exactly where I want to work - I have always wanted to do research, having had the oppertunity to do two large science projects as part of my course work (and doing exceptionally well in this type of environment). Unfortunately, due to a mishap in my final year, entirely of my own making, I screwed up my degree and didn't get an honours. Now it seems that I am destined to be denied an oppertunity to prove myself and make progress towards earning a PhD and getting my foot in the door, so to speak. All I've had is a barrage of "thanks, but no luck" replies from colleges.

Its got to the point where I am seriously considering going back to college to do another undergrad degree just so I can supercede my old degree with one that reflects my abilities better. But then I think to myself "another 4 years? Thats alot of time in college with little to show for myself". Am I crazy to go down that path? Would I look like a fool if I did? Should I maybe just hold out for another year and keep trying? How far should I go to follow a wacky dream - I've got an alright job at the moment, but its nothing I can see myself doing ad infinitum.

This is actually weighing very heavily on my mind and I find it hard to discuss with my immediate family and friends. Has anyone done something like this?

cruiserweight

Just curious what area in particular are you working in and where have you applied? I am doing a Ph.D, so if you have any questions or anything PM me!

Have you considered another year doing a taught masters? Normally they involve some sort of research project which may give you an oppurtunity to prove yourself, and get your foot in the door so to speak!

planck2

Why not do a taught masters first and then see how it goes

LegacyUser

Firstly, I think it is unnecessary for you to do another degree. One thing about a PhD is that it will use entirely different skills to those you have acquired in your degree. It is a very practical based qualification and tests your ability to 'think outside the box'. It's about making your own research decisions and being able to justify why you made them - whether they are right or wrong - you can't fail a PhD because the answer is wrong, unless you don't know what the hell you did. (I hope that doesn't scare you - you get plenty of help from your supervisors, postdocs and other students)

Your problem may not lie with the supervisors but with the funding of the PhD. If the funding comes from a goverment research council for a specific project then it is likely to come with conditions such as requiring an honours degree. If the funding comes from elsewhere then it is possible that a supervisor may take you on regardless. BTW doing a taught or research based masters should negate the former, but before you do that some more advice:

The first thing I would ask is are you applying to the college or directly to the supervisor? I would suggest you email the supervisor in charge of the PhD and show you are interested in the project. The reasons for this is that some PhD places will have 20 applicants and others will have zero applicants. If you are in the 20 situation then it will put you in good stead as it will show that you are personally interested in their project rather than just applying to any old PhD, if you are in the zero case and the supervisor takes a shine to you and they need the position filled, they may be able to negotiate the conditions for you.

The other advice on top of this I would give is: try applying for PhDs that may not be your initial first choice but will provide you with the research skills that you need to do your dream job. What you do in your PhD does not set in stone what type of research you do afterwards - obviously try to stay in a similar area, i.e it would be harder to move from doing a PhD in English Lit to a job in Molecular Biology but in science for example, a lot of the biological sciences are interchangeable. So, when choosing the PhD, do some research and check 'what skills will it give me' and 'would I be able to do this type of research'.

If it possible for you, I would also suggest applying for PhDs in the UK, as this will increase your choices.

WhiteWashMan

ok, first off, you are in a good position.

you know what you want to do.

you are ahead of 95% of the worlds workforce!

dont make the mistake of thinking that getting a better degree will make you a better candidate to do what you want to do.
youd be surprised that just being enthusiastic and passionate about your subject can get you pretty far.

with regards to doing a second degree, i dont think it will make any difference. whatever you do, you will still probably start at the bottom, and you will just end up disillusioned with your subject while in college anyway, and you will probably end up in the same position, except with 2 degrees.
at that point, employees will wonder why you have actually spent 4 years in college.
can you not handle working?
are you unreliable?
are you a perpetual student?

my advice would be to look at where you want to be. think about the position you want.
youre probably not going to get it straight away, and if you do it will be so appallingly badly paid, you will wonder if its worth it.

look at where you want to be, and think of the routes to this position. look at what positions will give you the experience to get there. these days, unless you are entering a graduate position, may positions will be based on experience.
look at the positions that will get you there, and try and get into one that will give you the options to expand, prove yourself, and make a name for yourself.

dont waste 4 years in college when yo ucan be getting vital industry experience that is going to be far more benficial to you.

if you do end up oing back to college, then i would suggest instead of an undergrade degree, you go for some sort of a masters course that will lead into the area you want to be, or at least, want to go.

SparkyLarks

Do you want to do acedemic research or industrial.
Acedimic tends to be more abstract. Inductrial carries on from the academic and implements the academic research into a more practical environment. obviously ther are exceptions to this

If you want to do academic research are you looking a getting a Doctorate and doing post Doc research
If so you normally need a 1H for direct entry to Phd. an honours is normally needed for a masters. You should be able to do a H DIP with a pass degree
find a project in a college/ university research center that you are intrested in and would like to research.

Arrange a meating with whoever is in charge of the project.
Go an talk to them, be enthusastic, have your research done so you can ask informed questions. any researcher will want an enthustatic assistant/post grad studant, if they have the budget

If they think that you are intrested in the subject then there is a chance that they will try to help you get around the entry criteria. I've seen it done
you may have to do a Higher Diploma, then go on to a Masters and onto a PhD that would take about 5 years.

If you want to do research then you have to find a company that does that research and try to get a job ther. Try to call the head of their R&D dept talk to him about what they do. That will put you above other candidates in his mind. Find out about the selection process and then research it as mucha as you can on the internet. some of these personality type tests can be fidged very well if you know what to answer.

As said, you know where you want to be, that's the hard part. finding out how to get ther is the easy bit

nesf

Sparky Larks is right.

A HDip is a valid route into a PhD. I know a few PhD/Maters students in UCC who graduated with pass degrees but who after doing a HDip in the subject were able to get into a research postgrad.

Best bet is to have a chat with your old department they should know all the ins and outs of what's feasible. Helps if you have good relations with them obviously

Edit: I should mention that the people I'm thinking of are doing PhD's and MSc's in Physics. Might be different in other sciences.

*shrugs*

The Clown Man

Christ. I wish I knew what I wanted to do.

I'd just concentrate on the area of work you want to get into and make your way up. People will recognise that you are determined etc and if you show enough aptitude you will get where you want. Nevermind 3 years of a degree all over again, just get into the type of work you want to be in (even if it is not what you wanted to be doing) and you will be able to get where you want to be once you are recognised as being fit for the job. Take a lower job and you will be where you want in a year - nevermind 3!

Work your way up. Make friends. This will get you places. The degree is only a guidline for others. Some places take the final mark to be serious. Most recognise it is purely a guidline.

LegacyUser

Don't be disheartened. The other writer is right - it is funding agencies that insist on II(1) or I but there are some grants where it is up to the supervisor. Also - you don't have to start a PhD in October - you can pretty much start when you like, although the usual times are in October and say around April -so don't think necessarily in terms of academic years

Most people start off doing a masters - even if it is just a formality - and transfer to PhD after 18 months or so. So therefore you should get in and apply for masters (by research). Where are you looking for postgrads? What is your area? Personally I have found that academically good people are not always as good in the lab in the lab as one would expect.

I agree with other posters that you don't have to do a degree - it will just take a bit of time and tough skin to find a position. It's a very good time to do postgrad. Funding is generally excellent now (compared to say 10 years ago) and not everyone wants to do one these days as there are lots of "good jobs" out there.

If you post a bit more relevant info up I (and others here I'm sure) could help you a bit more.

PS As an aside, the notion that

"Acedimic tends to be more abstract. Inductrial carries on from the academic and implements the academic research into a more practical environment. obviously ther are exceptions to this"

is a bit out of date. Funding agencies now demand relevance to the real world - which is bad for science but that is another topic entirely!