Teaching myself

Gwyllin

I'm teaching myself Irish with a self-tutorial book by Mícheál Ó Siadhail!
I'm on a chapter about the copula and I have a question. Please help me.

Marab é sin an múinteoir, níl sé anseo ar chor ar bith.

What exactly means marab?
Is it a combination or mara + ab ?

I would also like to know how to say "I love you"?
I think it is "Is aoibhinn lium thusa"..

Inspector Gadget

I'm not sure - in my understanding, using "ab" suggests the past tense, whereas everything after the comma is definitely present tense. Instead, I suspect that the "b" is inserted to make the sentence "flow" better when spoken - a vowel at the end of a word followed by a vowel at the beginning of the next is difficult to say quickly without the two words blending together. At least this is what I've been led to believe, and is used as a matter of course where I come from (west of Ireland) when speaking, though I wasn't aware of its use in written Irish.

The sample sentence is somewhat nonsensical though - "If he wasn't the teacher, he isn't here at all" (though I'd be more inclined to say "If that wasn't the teacher..." to fall in with English-language conventions).

On the other question, I'm afraid a lot of sentences in English do not translate word-for-word into Irish - your query is a good example. A good substitute (both for word count and sentiment) would be "Mo ghrá thú" ("you are my love").

Hope this helps,
Gadget

Inspector Gadget

Gwyllin wrote:

I think it is "Is aoibhinn lium thusa"..

In case it helps, "tusa" is considered a formal address, whereas "tú" is the more personal form. The above should probably be written "Is aoibhinn liom thú" (best literal translation I can come up with is "you're lovely to me").

Gadget

Gael

Gwyllin wrote:

I'm teaching myself Irish with a self-tutorial book by Mícheál Ó Siadhail!
I'm on a chapter about the copula and I have a question. Please help me.

Marab é sin an múinteoir, níl sé anseo ar chor ar bith.

What exactly means marab?
Is it a combination or mara + ab ?

I would also like to know how to say "I love you"?
I think it is "Is aoibhinn lium thusa"..

You're right about marab. Is aoibhinn liom..... is fine but it's used for saying that you love a thing, be it abstract or concrete, rather than a person.

i.e. "I love Irish" would be "Is aoibhinn liom Gaeilge"

You'd need to use "grá" if you're talking about love for another person.

Inspector Gadget

Gael wrote:

You're right about marab.

/me quietly takes notes....

(Sorry)
Gadget

Dalta

I dunno about what Gadget is saying. Is aoibhinn liom would mean (to me), indeed as Gael said love for a thing, but not real love, more adoration, in English it's generally exageratted to be love. aoibhinn means joy, literally is aoibhinn liom Gaeilge would mean Irish brings joy to me. To say I love a person doesn't translate over as Gadget said, in Irish it's said two ways that I've seen, "Tá'im i ngrá leat" - I'm in love with you and "Tá grá agam ort" - I have love for you. Mo ghrá thú means "My love to you" and doesn't neccesarrily imply romantic love between a man and a woman. It can mean bravo or well done. For example, after someone doing something nice for someone, they'd say "Mo ghrá thú" almost as a thank you.

And Gadget, where did you get that tusa was a formal adress? I've never heard anything like that, though am open to correction. Tusa is the emphasis of tú, as in to say, you as opposed to anyone else. For example "Is tusa an múinteoir" - you're the teacher (no one else is). To emphasis the love thing, one would say "Tá'im i ngrá leatsa" or "tá grá agam ortsa", i.e. I love you and no one else.

And finally, as to Marab, I've always heard murab, though marab might be a dialectual difference. It's not past tense I'm fairly sure or it would be murar. Leaving the sentence to mean "If he isn't the teacher, he's not here at all", which doesn't really make sense.

simu

Dalta wrote:

And finally, as to Marab, I've always heard murab, though marab might be a dialectual difference. It's not past tense I'm fairly sure or it would be murar. Leaving the sentence to mean "If he isn't the teacher, he's not here at all", which doesn't really make sense.

That sentence does make sense! If you were at a concert or something and trying to spot a new teacher whom you'd never seen before it could have the meaning of "If that guy over there isn't the teacher, I don't think the teacher is here at all (i.e. there are no other people here who could be him), for example! The Irish sentence given in the first post works the same way.

Mura (or mara - both are correct and mean the same thing) is described as a conjunction in Ó Dónaill's dictionary, which I happen to have in front of me as I type. It then combines with the copula in some cases, forming murab/marab if it's the present tense and the next word starts with a vowel.

Examples: Is é sin é (that's it) --> Murab/Marab é sin é. (If that's not it)

So it's mara and the copula.

I hope that's clear - if not ask more questions! Actually, this sort of thing is tricky to translate to English exactly!

seanogal

ta cion agam ort
In reverse -Is tu mo ghra

simu

seanogal wrote:

ta cion agam ort

That's more "I'm fond of you" and you could say it to a platonic friend to my ears. "Táim i ngrá leat" is stronger.

Inspector Gadget

Hmm... I hope I haven't caused more problems than I intended to solve!

Apologies on the "tú/tusa" distinction, my mistake. Worded badly, was tired and a little cranky at the time, though I know that to be a poor excuse.

(/me makes another quiet note about the term "copula" - somehow, I'd surmise that the etymology of that term is interesting...)

Simu's explanation of the sample sentence seems fine too, but I still think that it's less than an exemplary use of language, irrespective of which language you happen to be using at the time. It would probably (to my narrow little mind) be okay with the addition of some surrounding context, but...

However, I'm not so sure that I agree with all of the interpretations/translations offered (and for the record, I'm certainly no Irish scholar, but I'm curious about this, so here goes; it could be simply down to regional differences, so please try not to shoot me down too harshly). If I was to translate "I have love for you" into Irish, the first thing that would come into my head (insert all appropriate provisos here) would be "Tá grá agam dhuit" (though, confusingly, by the same token the sentence "Tá cion agam ort", and simu's translation/interpretation, both look fine to me)? I'm also disinclined to go with "Mo ghrá thú" meaning "My love to you" as to my mind the two sentences are very different. Again, I might be wrong.

I'd be very interested to hear what the gurus have to say on such matters, and apologies if I've unwittingly hijacked the thread...
Gadget

Dalta

Inspector Gadget wrote:

Hmm... I hope I haven't caused more problems than I intended to solve!

Apologies on the "tú/tusa" distinction, my mistake. Worded badly, was tired and a little cranky at the time, though I know that to be a poor excuse.

(/me makes another quiet note about the term "copula" - somehow, I'd surmise that the etymology of that term is interesting...)

Simu's explanation of the sample sentence seems fine too, but I still think that it's less than an exemplary use of language, irrespective of which language you happen to be using at the time. It would probably (to my narrow little mind) be okay with the addition of some surrounding context, but...

However, I'm not so sure that I agree with all of the interpretations/translations offered (and for the record, I'm certainly no Irish scholar, but I'm curious about this, so here goes; it could be simply down to regional differences, so please try not to shoot me down too harshly). If I was to translate "I have love for you" into Irish, the first thing that would come into my head (insert all appropriate provisos here) would be "Tá grá agam dhuit" (though, confusingly, by the same token the sentence "Tá cion agam ort", and simu's translation/interpretation, both look fine to me)? I'm also disinclined to go with "Mo ghrá thú" meaning "My love to you" as to my mind the two sentences are very different. Again, I might be wrong.

I'd be very interested to hear what the gurus have to say on such matters, and apologies if I've unwittingly hijacked the thread...
Gadget

Well, I'm certainly no guru, but I've noticed in Irish prepositions can be hard bastards to translate. They don't always mean what they're supposed to and some take the means of other ones. "I have love for you" if translated directly would be "Tá grá agam duit"(out of interest, why did you put the h in duit, you might be wrong, it sounds right, but I don't understand why), but that means like, "I have a packet of love for you, hang on there, it's upstairs.", rather than I love you. It's similar for "i'm sad for you", e.g. after a relative died, tá brón orm ort and I'm almost certain that there's more and better ones but I can't think of them.

Having looked back on "Mo ghrá thú", you might be right, or we might be both right. If "is" was put in at the start "Is mo ghrá thú", "My love is you" it would be ok, but I think it's an idiomatic phrase aswell, meaning bravo, along the lines of "Mo ghraidin thú", unless graidin means idol or some such, there's no entry for it in the Fóclóir Póca. Again, though, I could easily be wrong.

And I agree about the initial sentence, a bad use of language, especially outside context. Thanks too to simu for explaing mura/mara.

simu

Dalta wrote:

(out of interest, why did you put the h in duit, you might be wrong, it sounds right, but I don't understand why)

Dhuit, duit - they're both right but it's usually spelled without the h.

Having looked back on "Mo ghrá thú", you might be right, or we might be both right. If "is" was put in at the start "Is mo ghrá thú", "My love is you" it would be ok, but I think it's an idiomatic phrase aswell, meaning bravo, along the lines of "Mo ghraidin thú", unless graidin means idol or some such, there's no entry for it in the Fóclóir Póca. Again, though, I could easily be wrong.

Well, to me "mo ghrá thú" sounds like something you might say a bit mockingly or sarcastically. "Má cheapann tú go bhfuil agat, mo ghrá thú" - "If you think you've succeeded, I pity you" (or something along those lines). It's also translated as bravo and i love you in Ó Dónaill. I've heard it used as "bravo" alright afaik but not as "I love you". In any case, the meaning would depend on your tone of voice.

"Is mo ghrá thú" is wrong - it should be "is tú mo ghrá" - but this means more "you're my love" or "you're my darling" to me.

And I agree about the initial sentence, a bad use of language, especially outside context. Thanks too to simu for explaing mura/mara.

Thank Ó Dónaill! But yes - it is a bit of an odd sentence.

Inspector Gadget

I guess any expression of sentiment/affection/insert-appropriate-term-here of that kind can come across wrong/twee/just plain weird even when it isn't "lost in translation", so to speak... I originally settled on "mo ghrá thú" as it matched the original's word and syllable counts and conveyed approximately the same meaning. Obviously, it seems, being an insensitive (male) clod, it doesn't

On the subject of d(h)uit, I think whatever grasp I have of the local dialect may be letting me down on this one - it sounds right to my ear, if you know what I mean . Even if simu hadn't pointed it out, on reflection I'd be inclined to go with it being written lacking the offending "h"

Gadget

Dalta

simu wrote:

"Is mo ghrá thú" is wrong - it should be "is tú mo ghrá" - but this means more "you're my love" or "you're my darling" to me.

"Is mo ghrá thú" is technically right, but not said or written. The same way that Is mise Liam mean's I'm Liam when technically it means Liam is me.

And to Gadget, dhuit (I think) is grand I now realise(due partly to simu), I've even used it myself, especially with "Dia dhuit".

Btw, does anyone ever reply to that with "Dia's Muire duit", I always just reply "Dia duit".

Inspector Gadget

Dalta wrote:

Btw, does anyone ever reply to that with "Dia's Muire duit", I always just reply "Dia duit".

Personally, I'm not a great fan of dragging religion into language (which is decidedly difficult with Irish), so I prefer not to use it, but if I'm greeted in that way I find myself replying exactly as you state before I realise that I've done it...

[edit]I'm curious as to whether the original poster has picked anything useful up from this thread - an bhfuil rud ar bith foghlamtha agat, seachas go bhfuil Éireannaigh inann - agus go hiondúil sásta - díospóireacht a dheanamh faoi ábhar ar bith?[/edit]

Gadget

Ron DMC

You can even say "Dia is Muire is Pádraig duit!", after "Dia is Muire duit" is said

(And probably continue adding holy people's names to the end until one of you gives up.)

Gwyllin

You've made me even more confused than I ever was!! Make up your minds!!!
How do I say to my baby "I love you" in Irish??

I know that sentence about the teacher is illogical, but that is the same sentence as in my book. And that book was written by a professor of Irish..

Does anyone have a suggestion for other books I might buy? I get the feeling that this book is not enough.

simu

Gwyllin wrote:

You've made me even more confused than I ever was!! Make up your minds!!!
How do I say to my baby "I love you" in Irish??

You'd address it as "a ghrá geal" or "a stóirín" or "a chroí deoirín" or some such thing. There's a whole load of other similar expressions - they all correspond roughly to "my darling, dearest". You wouldn't really say "I love you" directly to a baby - how would it understand?

It's not so much that people are confused as that there are many ways of getting an idea accross and the ways this is done in Irish and in English often don't correspond.

Gwyllin

I meant my boyfriend. I want to tell him that I love him in Irish! :rolleyes:

simu

Táim i ngrá leat will do imo!

Gwyllin

Okay, thanks for your help!!