Irish Rail revenue protection

Bluetonic

Internal Irishrail memo

Irish rail has now established a northern and eastern revenue protection
team. They have been concentrating on Maynooth and Dundalk lines. In the
first 6 weeks of their operations they have found 1500 passengers with
invalid or no tickets on trains. They are now trialling a zero tolerance
approach on all off-peak services on these lines. This means that any
customer found without a ticket or an invalid ticket will have their contact
details taken and will be pursued for an administration fee of 80Euro by the
revenue protection unit. There were 3 recent convictions in the Dublin
district court for fare evasion. 2 received 500 euro fines and the other was
fined 450 euro.

HelterSkelter

Why don't they install ticket machines at stations where you can't get out of the station unless you validate your ticket, similar to the ones in use on the London Underground?

murphaph

Bluetonic wrote:

Internal Irishrail memo

Irish rail has now established a northern and eastern revenue protection
team. They have been concentrating on Maynooth and Dundalk lines. In the
first 6 weeks of their operations they have found 1500 passengers with
invalid or no tickets on trains. They are now trialling a zero tolerance
approach on all off-peak services on these lines. This means that any
customer found without a ticket or an invalid ticket will have their contact
details taken and will be pursued for an administration fee of 80Euro by the
revenue protection unit. There were 3 recent convictions in the Dublin
district court for fare evasion. 2 received 500 euro fines and the other was
fined 450 euro.

Well I can categorically state that the ticket inspectors are still letting people away with it. I was on board the 10.22 from Maynooth to Pearse yasterday. Two (cute) girls behind me were checked and had no tickets. They just handed the guy the fare and said they'd boarded at Maynooth (a fully staffed station where they should have bought tickets!). Bloke just sold them tickets. The inspectors clearly aren't complying with this clampdown and it stinks. CIE have always been pathetic at revenue protection. The whole policy of waving your ticket at the barriers at Connolly, Tara and Pearse are abused by fare evaders all the time. The Connex example is the one to follow.

SeanW

Great - they're cracking down on fare dodgers.

Now why don't they do something about the stations/times where you cannot buy tickets?

MarkoP11

HelterSkelter wrote:

Why don't they install ticket machines at stations where you can't get out of the station unless you validate your ticket, similar to the ones in use on the London Underground?

Already happening tender has been issued

Pearse, Tara Street, Connolly and Blackrock are at the top of the list, wont stop everyone but clearly with the city centre covered its a start

Yes I have seen them out and they are much harder than before, they have a copy of Tom's directory with them (Big red book with the name of the owner of every property) I've seen them kick one guy off

nagero

murphaph wrote:

Well I can categorically state that the ticket inspectors are still letting people away with it. I was on board the 10.22 from Maynooth to Pearse yasterday. Two (cute) girls behind me were checked and had no tickets. They just handed the guy the fare and said they'd boarded at Maynooth (a fully staffed station where they should have bought tickets!). Bloke just sold them tickets. The inspectors clearly aren't complying with this clampdown and it stinks. CIE have always been pathetic at revenue protection. The whole policy of waving your ticket at the barriers at Connolly, Tara and Pearse are abused by fare evaders all the time. The Connex example is the one to follow.

According to a ticket inspector I was talking to last week

Ticket Inspectors != Revenue Protection.

Revenue protection won't sell you a ticket, just fine you.

(They seem to target the off peak trains though. I suppose it would take too long to ticket every evader at peak times ;-))

kevin

murphaph

nagero wrote:

According to a ticket inspector I was talking to last week

Ticket Inspectors != Revenue Protection.

Revenue protection won't sell you a ticket, just fine you.

(They seem to target the off peak trains though. I suppose it would take too long to ticket every evader at peak times ;-))

kevin

The train was off peak. In any case, it sends out a stupid mixed message to people when one guy in an IE uniform who's checking tickets will sell them a ticket but another guy in the same uniform will want them fined!

Metrobest

I've said it before on these fora, IE's ticket-checking policy is schizophrenic and ridiculous.

And I don't approve of this plan of ticket validation as you exit platforms.

Concentrate on checking tickets on the trains, not at the entries/exits of platforms, an ineffective policy which just delays and annoys customers.

MarkoP11

So London Undeground and a heap of other operators etc are all wrong

On a heavily used system on board revenue inspections don't work, its fine for rural lines where infact you save on costs by having a traveling conductor meaning you can get away without staffed stations but its pretty damn useless when you consider the load factors on commuter trains in Dublin

Provided adequate turnstiles are provided there is minimal delay and given an the majority of DART staions you walk out through a turnstile anyway its no difference

murphaph

Well, it's a cultural thing. Fare evasion is seen as ok if you can get away with it by loads of Irish and British people. This trait of what is really theft is less prevalent in Germany (definitely an 'IMO' though!), perhaps most of the continent? Honour systems are the way to go (far higher throughput of people, especially on buses where all doors open to passengers) if you can back the system up with very serious penalties for evasion and keep evasion to a minimum. Connex appear to have it sorted. IE would need to get much tougher. BAC are tough when they catch evaders but they don't do nearly enough inspections to be a deterrent and if they went to an honour system would lose stacks of money.

K!LL!@N

Metrobest wrote:

Concentrate on checking tickets on the trains, not at the entries/exits of platforms, an ineffective policy which just delays and annoys customers.

What a ridiculous statement.

Do you even use public transport?
There is no way you could check tickets on rush hour Darts or intercity trains.
They're far too crowded.
And how do you account for people getting on after the inspector has passed through a carraige?

The Underground system in London is fantastic, in my opinion.
There is minimal delay even with heavy volumes of people.
The turnstiles are perfectly shaped.
You put your ticket in, it's validated, and the gate opens just as you reach it with your ticket ready to be removed.
You hardly have to slow down.
And if you have a smart card it's even faster.

For people in wheelchairs or someone with oversized luggage, you can have an attendant sitting at a gate who can check the ticket by hand.

It's a far more sensible approach than inspectors on trains.

Even the guys checking tickets at stations at the moment are next to useless.
If you get off at Tara Street ( which i do every day ), there are any number of ways you can avoid showing a ticket.
The main one being walking through the emergency exit.
Once one person goes through, it's like a stampede.
Or you can just pretend to be taking your ticket out of your wallet.
Or wave a used return ticket at the attendant.

I've used the Dart as my primary form of transport for the last 14 years.
I've also used equivalent transport systems in various other countries and frankly we're lagging far behind in every possible area.

Killian

murphaph

K!LL!@N wrote:

What a ridiculous statement.

Not at all. He's not talking about checking everyone's ticket as a matter of course. He's talking about regular spot checks of a barrier-less honour system which is more common in Europe than barrier type systems. The spot checks have to be regular enough that you believe you could well be caught without a ticket and the penalty has to be stiff enough too.

Barrier-less systems are preferred by transport planners if revenues can be adequately protected. Imagine how much faster buses would run if both doors were opened to allow boarding and disembarking wihout having to deal with the driver. This is commonplace elsewhere. Most users will have season tickets, those that don't can buy tickets from a machine located behind the driver.

K!LL!@N

murphaph wrote:

Not at all. He's not talking about checking everyone's ticket as a matter of course. He's talking about regular spot checks of a barrier-less honour system which is more common in Europe than barrier type systems. The spot checks have to be regular enough that you believe you could well be caught without a ticket and the penalty has to be stiff enough too.

Barrier-less systems are preferred by transport planners if revenues can be adequately protected. Imagine how much faster buses would run if both doors were opened to allow boarding and disembarking wihout having to deal with the driver. This is commonplace elsewhere. Most users will have season tickets, those that don't can buy tickets from a machine located behind the driver.

That's all very well in principle and i'm sure it works perfectly well in other European countries but i can't see it working here, much as i'd like to believe it could.

I just think the mentality of people here is one of getting one over on the system.
That's not something you're going to stamp out over night.

Also, and i don't want to depart from the theme of this thread too much, i've had to start using buses since i started a new job last November and the carry on of some passengers is beyond belief.
They have a hard time making it through a bus journey without spouting racial abuse and generally being ignorant to those around them, i doubt paying bus fare would rank high on their list of priorities if there was an honour system in place.

But i digress, if the system could work here i'd welcome it.
Anything that would increase revenue and hopefully maintain fare prices would obviously be welcome.

But i still think that automated ticket checking at the beginning and end of ones journey would be far more effective.
It would also give more accurate information about the numbers of people travelling, the distances travelled, when more carriages might be needed on trains, when more frequent trains are needed.
You won't get information like this from inspectors on trains.

Killian

murphaph

K!LL!@N wrote:

It would also give more accurate information about the numbers of people travelling, the distances travelled, when more carriages might be needed on trains, when more frequent trains are needed.
You won't get information like this from inspectors on trains.

The smartcard will be able to give all that information. It will be compulsory to swipe the card over a reader on the bus etc. just like the current Luas smart card. It's an honour system with a twist.

I hear what you're saying about scumbags ruining it for everyone and I agree that if imposed right now, with the current setup it would be doomed. Any move to an honur system would need legislation making penalties very stiff and making parents responsible for their scumbag kids actions too.

Lennoxschips

This trait of what is really theft is less prevalent in Germany (definitely an 'IMO' though!), perhaps most of the continent?

I dunno, I would estimate that about 25% of the passengers on Dutch trams, metro and trains aren't paying.

vector

lets not reinvent the wheel

public transport exists elsewhere

just go on a fact finding mission to [efficient_foreign_city] eg
and copy their system, sure you could even buy all the equiptment from the same company that installed it there (tender excepted)

(some people hate to copy britain regardless so best to choose another country)

SeanW

Yes. Pick Germany. Berlin in particular. All their Metro and Suburban trains work off the honour system. I don't see the BVG or MVV going bankrupt though - do you? I don't know about buses and trams though.

Their networks generally kick ass and are often expanding.

HelterSkelter

Metrobest wrote:

...
Concentrate on checking tickets on the trains, not at the entries/exits of platforms, an ineffective policy which just delays and annoys customers.

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Have you ever been on the underground in London? The ticket validators at the exit of the stations don't slow people down at all. They are very efficient.

An honour system here won't work cos so many people are theiving scumbags.

Zaph0d

HelterSkelter wrote:

An honour system here won't work cos so many people are theiving scumbags.

So why does it work on the Luas?

HelterSkelter

Zaph0d wrote:

So why does it work on the Luas?

Are you saying fare evasion does not happen on the luas?

enterprise

Trust me it does!

I was talking to a CSO yesterday and he had issued a number of standard fare notices during his shift.

Zaph0d

There's some degree of fare evasion on most public transport systems. You suggested that an honour based fare system could not work in Ireland due to dishonesty.

Yet a private company is already operating this scheme with apparent success. Do you believe the Luas fare system is not working and should be replaced by a barrier system? While you would expect higher fare evasion levels on an honour based system, you save money on the expense of land and barriers. The service is more attractive to passengers when it is walk-on. Connex have reported 'very high levels of fare compliance'. I'd imagine they would install barriers if they thought it was worthwhile.

Despite your positive experience of efficient barriers in London, I worked there for years and my experience was different. I often missed trains or was delayed leaving stations.

murphaph

Incidentally, I've been to Tokyo a couple of times for work and they are one of the most honest bunch of people in the world with one of the lowest crime rates in the world, yet they use barriers on at least some of their underground lines (there's at least two companies running the underground in Tokyo, maybe more?). Weird. I was in Shinjuku Station loads of times-you should see it. 2 million people pass through it every day, making it the busiest railway station in the world!

Victor

HelterSkelter wrote:

Why don't they install ticket machines at stations where you can't get out of the station unless you validate your ticket, similar to the ones in use on the London Underground?

All very well, but it won't work at Sandymount or Lansdowne Road where the platforms are next to level crossings.

K!LL!@N

Victor wrote:

All very well, but it won't work at Sandymount or Lansdowne Road where the platforms are next to level crossings.

They couldn't be blocked off, no?
Or some other system put in place to prevent people jumping down onto the tracks to evade paying.

Not a particularly insightful comment there, Victor. :rolleyes:

Killian

vector

K!LL!@N wrote:

...some other system put in place to prevent people jumping down onto the tracks to evade paying...

well if the frequency of trains was very high no one would jump on the tracks unless they wanted to be roadkill

K!LL!@N

I think menacing looking guards with electric cattle prods would be the best deterrent to the masses of people that currently jump down onto the tracks to avoid paying their fares. :rolleyes:

Killian

Victor

K!LL!@N wrote:

Not a particularly insightful comment there, Victor. :rolleyes:

Securing a ground level railway is more difficult than an underground or elevated one.

Metrobest

Please let's not copy London's barrier system. Whilst such a system may work efficiently in large tube stations, and on other metros, they would not work well on Dublin's commuter stations, which were not designed to cope with the levels of passengers that they today carry. Exiting Tara Street in the mornings is already a joke: you should not have to queue to leave the exit station of your (already late!) train.

Just as you can never have 100% security, you can never have 100% fare compliance. I've seen lots of people vault the barriers in Paris, Stockholm, Milan etc. So barriers won't prevent fare evasion.

Honour systems work in Berlin, for example, because the inspectors don't wear uniforms, so they "pounce" at unpredicatable moments. And the inspectors take no excuses! In Dublin, they work because people actually feel the luas is worth paying for, and the ticket inspections are regular and efficient.

The message to Irish Rail is this. Don't even consider putting in these exit barriers until you get your house in order. By that I mean running trains on time, announcing delays, delivering decent customer service and giving value for money to taxpayers.

SeanW

Hear, hear.

SeanW

Here's something NOONE has been able to tell me:

How do exit barriers fit in to IEs chaotic multitude of ticketing policies? When you arrive at your starting station only to find that you cannot buy ticket, no ticket seller, no TVM, nothing. So you are forced to board the train "Sans billet." But there's no guard/conductor, so you can't get your ticket there either.

So what happens? Well here's my guess. You cannot leave, so you have to own up to being a "criminal" and get slapped with some ridiculous "standard fare." But then, you have to get home, so you have no choice but to buy a one way ticket, which ends up costing you as much as the roundtrip ticket that you couldn't buy at your home station.

Exit barriers simply do not fit into the absurdly chaotic mess that is IEs ticketing policies. Time to lift a page out of the BVG's (and Connex's) book and have an honour system backed by credible and unwavering enforcement. And time to put TVMs in ALL stations.