This is just crazy

Johnny Jukebox

Ever enjoyed a peaceful stroll around 3 Rock mountain on Dublins Southside, where you can take in the views of city. mountains and sea ? Its going to get a bit more exciting now, as you may be dodging bullets.

Some crowd called the The Leinster Rifle and Pistol Club are attempting to reopen the old firing range there. I know this area like the back of my hand, and the old range is bang in the middle of the forest, with walking paths on all sides. There is just no way shooting can be safely allowed, unless you deny access to everybody else onto the mountain.

I just can't believe that a communal resource can be placed under such threat by a private concern.

See this thread from their forum;

http://groups.msn.com/TheLeinsterRiflePistolClub/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=266&LastModified=4675529619634083597

segadreamcast

Write to the Irish Times, Independent etc on the matter?

Sparks

Technically, this isn't a surprise. Since it's been a rifle range since the 1800s. And is clearly marked as such on all the O.S. maps. And will be fully signposted and fenced off before shooting begins. And is private property.
So unless you're deliberately trespassing while ignoring several warnings, you'd have nothing to worry about.

egan007

Sparks wrote:

Technically, this isn't a surprise. Since it's been a rifle range since the 1800s. And is clearly marked as such on all the O.S. maps. And will be fully signposted and fenced off before shooting begins. And is private property.
So unless you're deliberately trespassing while ignoring several warnings, you'd have nothing to worry about.

Sure it's a well known fact that bullets don't travel through fences

whiskeyman

Johnny Jukebox wrote:

Some crowd called the The Leinster Rifle and Pistol Club are attempting to reopen the old firing range there.

Hmm, I wonder if they came across newly donationed guns and ammo from the North....

Rew

egan007 wrote:

Sure it's a well known fact that bullets don't travel through fences

Depends allot on the bullet and the fence actually.

They wont be shooting at the fence they will be shooting at the targets which have a large bank of earth behind which bullets wont travel through. Im sure it wont make the entire mountain unusable. There are plenty of civil and military ranges that operate safely in many different areas this should be no different. I don't think that the LR&PC are out to get anyone. Starting topics like "Ever Wanted to Shoot a Cyclist" is hardly going to help matters are lead to reasonable debate.

Sparks

whiskeyman wrote:

Hmm, I wonder if they came across newly donationed guns and ammo from the North....

And that's not exactly a reasoned bit of argument either. All the firearms used by the LR&PC are licensed by the gardai, just like they are for every other target shooter in the country (and don't forget, we've got some world class and world champion target shooters in Ireland. Cyclists need their place to train; so do shooters).

Johnny Jukebox

Sparks wrote:

Technically, this isn't a surprise. Since it's been a rifle range since the 1800s. And is clearly marked as such on all the O.S. maps. And will be fully signposted and fenced off before shooting begins. And is private property.
So unless you're deliberately trespassing while ignoring several warnings, you'd have nothing to worry about.

Its a surprise to me that something so ludricious should be even considered. When this hits the mainstream media, you'll need to stand back.

You know as well as I do that fencing and signposts won't have any impact on certain types of individuals, most likely teenage boys. The range is bordered by several Coillte paths. Its an extremely busy area and I can't possibly see how you can guarantee the safety of the public in this location, despite your assurances. Thats an argument you'll have with your insurers and the Department of Justice.

What is your liability for a member of public outside range boundaries struck by a bullet when discharged within said boundaries ?

Johnny Jukebox

Sparks wrote:

Cyclists need their place to train; so do shooters).

And mountain biking is banned on 3 Rock; so you can't cycle your bike around the forest, but you can shoot guns in the middle of it. Brillant.

whiskeyman

Sparks wrote:

And that's not exactly a reasoned bit of argument either. All the firearms used by the LR&PC are licensed by the gardai, just like they are for every other target shooter in the country (and don't forget, we've got some world class and world champion target shooters in Ireland. Cyclists need their place to train; so do shooters).

only kidding man... I'm sure its heavily regulated etc..
Seriously though, how are Irish shooters in the world rankings?
There's always a joke every Olympics about us not having quality shooters there.... any hopes for upcoming Olympics / World Championships?

Sparks

Johnny Jukebox wrote:

Its a surprise to me that something so ludricious should be even considered. When this hits the mainstream media, you'll need to stand back.

Beats me as to why. The army is letting rip with fully-automatic assault rifles and general purpose machine guns on a fairly regular basis in their ranges in the Wicklow hills without anyone getting worried; here we're talking about target shooters who fire one round at a time and generally put all their rounds within a six-inch diameter group. They have a clean line of sight between them and the backstop. Frankly, it's perfectly safe. There are ranges in far more unusual sounding locations; there's one in munich where there's a car park behind the wall to the left of the range and a kindergarden playground behind the backstop, and noone thinks of it as a risk (and noone has ever been harmed by its being there either).

You know as well as I do that fencing and signposts won't have any impact on certain types of individuals, most likely teenage boys.

And I also know that shooters have range officers who keep an eye out for such idiots trying to sneak across a line of targets that have rounds flying through them, and that the shooters themselves keep a close watch on the surroundings as well (you have to, to monitor the wind so you can hit the target).

Thats an argument you'll have with your insurers and the Department of Justice.

Not my insurers, I'm not a member of or representative of the LR&PC, I'm just pointing out some basic facts until one of them arrives.

What is your liability for a member of public outside range boundaries struck by a bullet when discharged within said boundaries ?

Me personally? The maximum is a little over a million euro, if I remember correctly. Standard insurance setup for a target shooter. Mind you, we've had target shooting in Ireland since the early 1840s (on campus in Trinity College in the center of Dublin in 1841 was the earliest reference I've found to date) and until this year we'd never had a single injury. We're a rather safe bunch. You're in more danger, in fact, driving to and from the range than you ever are on the range.

Sparks

whiskeyman wrote:

only kidding man... I'm sure its heavily regulated etc..
Seriously though, how are Irish shooters in the world rankings?
There's always a joke every Olympics about us not having quality shooters there.... any hopes for upcoming Olympics / World Championships?

In shotgun shooting, Derek Burnett came in 8th place in the Olympics in Athens. David Malone won the gold in World Cup in Cairo just before Athens. The Irish shotgun team are currently the world champions in Olympic trap shooting and have several gold and bronze medals from World Cups. The Irish junior air rifle shooters are among the best in the world; they're competing in Bisley in the UK at the moment against 120-odd other shooters, and one placed fourth, though he went into the finals in first place and has now qualified for carding. And we've just seen our Silhouette team win the US championships as well, and there are several European and World Championships medals already in their display cases.

So, yes, basicly. But again, facilities are needed. We did have one of the best fullbore rifle teams in Europe and the world before the Troubles saw the rifles banned; they've now been restored and the fullbore target shooting community is starting to get going again, but they need places to train to reclaim their rankings...

Johnny Jukebox

Sparks wrote:

Beats me as to why. The army is letting rip with fully-automatic assault rifles and general purpose machine guns on a fairly regular basis in their ranges in the Wicklow hills without anyone getting worried; here we're talking about target shooters who fire one round at a time and generally put all their rounds within a six-inch diameter group.

Sure. In the Glen of Imaal which is miles from anywhere and gets very little traffic. Not in one of the busiest forest parks on the doorstep of south Dublin. Your analogy is a little inaccurate.

Thanks for the information anyway.

I suspect sheer economics will take care of this anyway. The cost of securing this range I would guess to be prohibitive. It will need a fence around it, won't it, with secured access, marshalled by club members ?

Rew

Johnny Jukebox wrote:

Sure. In the Glen of Imaal which is miles from anywhere and gets very little traffic. Not in one of the busiest forest parks on the doorstep of south Dublin. Your analogy is a little inaccurate.

The Glen is mainly an artillery range not a small arms range.

The Curragh has a golf course running behind several major fireing ranges with no problems. Killkoran is is Coilte land with tracks running behind the range with no problems. Bere Island has costal water used by fishermen and leasuire craft behind the butts no problem.

Oh and the Glen is not the only range in wicklow there are a few others AFAIK.

benhurt1

Johnny Jukebox wrote:

Sure. In the Glen of Imaal which is miles from anywhere and gets very little traffic. Not in one of the busiest forest parks on the doorstep of south Dublin. Your analogy is a little inaccurate.

what about Kilbride and Kilpedder? both very popular with walkers, cyclists and horseriders.....

HJ Simpson

I am sure the facility is needed but is it really wise to re-open a range on the alternative walkway to the Wicklow Way if you enter via Ticknock and not Kilmashogue?

HJS

Sparks

Where else would you suggest HJ?

HJ Simpson

How about somewhere that isnt smack in the middle of one of south Dublins largest outdoor amenieties?
On some private land. I accept this may be private land but I have never seen any signs up there to say so!!

HJS

Sparks

So you want an outdoor amenity to be located somewhere other than the outdoors? Or do you think that these concerns wouldn't be raised no matter where the range was?

And if you accept that it's private land, what's the problem?

HJ Simpson

The whole of 3ROCK is private land but is open to public use. I never said it should be indoors it should be on private land that doesnt have walkways all over it!!!

Sparks

If the land's private HJ, then the walkways are a gift, not a right. Which sounds arrogant, but seriously, I've seen the hassles clubs have had trying to get ranges built and going through that with the CC will take every last erg of energy you have and then some, so "Hey, I use your private land, you can't do what you want with it!" doesn't carry a huge deal of weight...

Borzoi

Johnny Jukebox wrote:

Ever enjoyed a peaceful stroll around 3 Rock mountain on Dublins Southside, where you can take in the views of city. mountains and sea ? Its going to get a bit more exciting now, as you may be dodging bullets.

When I was a kid, early eighties, the army still used that range for practice and competitions. I remember watching them several times.

3Rock is more developed now, but there no reason if properly managed that the range can't continue

Rew

People are blowing the scale of the range out of proportion. Its tiny compared to the rest of 3 Rock/Ticknoc. Plenty of room for all intrested parties.

murphaph

Anybody ever see that episode of Forensic Detectives (I think) where a guy was killed on a shooting range after a strayy bullet ricochet'd off a ceiling tile and struck him in the head? Twas really really unlucky.

Rew

All the ceiling tiles have been removed from the Ticknoc range to avoid just such a tragedy :rolleyes: