Jacks are Gay!

NickyOD

You are in the $10 MTT on PokerStars sitting on a stack of 5.5K.

There are 131 players left of the starting 861 and 81 get paid. It's at the 200/400/25 level with 5 minutes to go to the 300/600/50 level.

You are dealt JJ UTG. How do you proceed?

henbane

stack of 5.5K. There are 131 players left of the starting 861 and 81 get paid. It's at the 200/400/25 level with 5 minutes to go to the 300/600/50 level.

You will have a little over 10xBB by the time you've got the button. That's going to get worse in 5 minutes time.

Folding is not an option.

Any raise commits you to the pot unless you have the mother of all reads. It's time to play for all your chips. A push may discourage callers and right now I think you need one. You do have right of first bluff unless the blinds are one of your callers so a flop with a K or a Q isn't terrible.

If the table is playing very aggressive and with antes to steal it should be, a limp/push might be an option. Unless you're guaranteed that opportunity limping is foolish.

Any information on average stack size at the table (particularly the blinds) would be helpful. What do you reckon your image is like? I'm guessing you either haven't played a lot of hands or else you got reamed in the recent past. How many on the table? What's the starting stack?

NickyOD

henbane wrote:

Any information on average stack size at the table (particularly the blinds) would be helpful. What do you reckon your image is like? I'm guessing you either haven't played a lot of hands or else you got reamed in the recent past. How many on the table? What's the starting stack?

Obviously I didn't consider folding. I think my options are to jam or make a standard raise.

The table was playing very loose. Average stack at the time was about 9.5K. I had shown very few hands at the table so my table image is very tight not that this is relevent in a $10 MTT. The players in the blinds were shortstacks. The 2 stacks on my left were shorter. 3 stacks in MP of 11K,13K and 14K were very wreckless with weak hands.

Anyway I jammed and walked into kings which isn't really the point. I just wondered if anyone would have considered a standard raise and a fold to a reraise. There was a time when I thought that was beyond weak tight but my record in MTTs is so bad I'm beginning to question these sort of things.

henbane

NickyOD wrote:

I just wondered if anyone would have considered a standard raise and a fold to a reraise. There was a time when I thought that was beyond weak tight but my record in MTTs is so bad I'm beginning to question these sort of things.

The only reason to make a standard raise here is to get all your chips in when someone comes over the top or whatever comes on the flop. The blinds are going to eat you. Any other consideration is purely results based.

If you make your raise and fold, the blinds will cost you immediately and you will be looking to make late position steals whilst the "wreckless" big stacks are in the blinds. You will have also lost respect for your raises - bad players assume anyone who raises and folds once is always raising with trash. Down goes your steal equity.

One more question: What is your standard raise in this spot? I don't play with antes so I'm never sure how to take them in to consideration in these spots.

impr0v

I read the start of this thread, went back to the $25stt i was playing and found jacks in a similar position. Opted for a large raise and also found kings. I called his all-in because he had pushed in response to a raise on the previous hand too and i figured that he had a mid/strong ace or maybe TT.

[Aug 8 21:19:06] : Hand Start.
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : Seat 1 : ricon5 has $2,360
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : Seat 3 : impr0v has $2,110
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : Seat 5 : cashflow zz has $5,085
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : Seat 6 : dont4get911 has $2,790
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : Seat 7 : chubarama has $1,265
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : Seat 9 : o_motte has $4,390
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : chubarama is the dealer.
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : o_motte posted small blind.
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : ricon5 posted big blind.
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : Game [43] started with 6 players.
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Aug 8 21:19:06] : Seat 3 : impr0v has Js Jc
[Aug 8 21:19:15] : impr0v called 200 and raised 800
[Aug 8 21:19:20] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Next level in: 6 min.
[Aug 8 21:19:23] : cashflow zz called 1,000
[Aug 8 21:19:23] : dont4get911 folded.
[Aug 8 21:19:24] : chubarama folded.
[Aug 8 21:19:24] : o_motte folded.
[Aug 8 21:19:26] : ricon5 called 800 and raised 1,360 and is All-in
[Aug 8 21:19:30] : impr0v called 1,110 and is All-in
[Aug 8 21:19:33] : cashflow zz called 1,360
[Aug 8 21:19:33] : Showdown!
[Aug 8 21:19:33] : Seat 3 : impr0v has Js Jc
[Aug 8 21:19:35] : Seat 1 : ricon5 has Kh Kc
[Aug 8 21:19:35] : Seat 3 : impr0v has Js Jc
[Aug 8 21:19:35] : Seat 5 : cashflow zz has Ad Qs
[Aug 8 21:19:39] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Next level in: 5 min.
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : Board cards [Ac 3c 7c 4d Qc]
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : Seat 1 : ricon5 has Kh Kc
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : ricon5 has Flush AKQ73
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : Seat 5 : cashflow zz has Ad Qs
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : cashflow zz has Two Pair: Aces and Queens
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : ricon5 wins 500 with Flush AKQ73
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : Seat 1 : ricon5 has Kh Kc
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : ricon5 has Flush AKQ73
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : Seat 3 : impr0v has Js Jc
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : impr0v has Flush AQJ73
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : Seat 5 : cashflow zz has Ad Qs
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : cashflow zz has Two Pair: Aces and Queens
[Aug 8 21:19:44] : ricon5 wins 6,430 with Flush AKQ73
[Aug 8 21:19:59] : Hand is over.

NickyOD

henbane wrote:

One more question: What is your standard raise in this spot? I don't play with antes so I'm never sure how to take them in to consideration in these spots.

I think between 1200-1500 is fine. Considering it was a loose table I think pushing and hoping for 1 caller was the right move. I'm sick of tournaments.

padraig_f

henbane wrote:

Any raise commits you to the pot unless you have the mother of all reads.

I don't think a raise necessarily commits you, what's wrong with a raise to $1k and a fold to a reraise? You have a tight image, you're raising UTG and it's approaching the bubble, you don't need a supernatural read to consider folding JJ if you're reraised there.

ocallagh

I'd probably push all-in.

Although, you should consider folding this hand in a tournament. There is not much value in it. If you get called, you are in a 50/50 or seriously in trouble. You might get lucky to get TT in with you.. but this would be rare enough. If they all fold, you've risked everything to pick up the antes/blinds.

If there were a few weak opponents at the table, I might.. (might) fold it.

I don't think raising is an option as you're never going to fold to a re-raise.. and by only raising 3XBB you might get one or two more callers.. If you want to gamble with JJ you want to gamble heads up.

BigDragon

NickyOD wrote:

You are in the $10 MTT on PokerStars sitting on a stack of 5.5K.

There are 131 players left of the starting 861 and 81 get paid. It's at the 200/400/25 level with 5 minutes to go to the 300/600/50 level.

You are dealt JJ UTG. How do you proceed?

PokerStars Game #2292602417: Tournament #10966748, Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2005/08/08 - 16:43:35 (ET)
Table '10966748 39' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: mrpierre76 (6263 in chips)
Seat 2: wepner01 (12555 in chips)
Seat 3: fabiaom (17649 in chips)
Seat 4: derkaderk (7757 in chips)
Seat 5: SoSolidCrew (12615 in chips)
Seat 6: Tanner199 (12188 in chips)
Seat 8: BigSynergy (7080 in chips)
Seat 9: MannieD (6679 in chips)
mrpierre76: posts the ante 50
wepner01: posts the ante 50
fabiaom: posts the ante 50
derkaderk: posts the ante 50
SoSolidCrew: posts the ante 50
Tanner199: posts the ante 50
BigSynergy: posts the ante 50
MannieD: posts the ante 50
BigSynergy: posts small blind 300
MannieD: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BigSynergy [Kh Kd]
mrpierre76: folds
derkaderk said, "live cards"
derkaderk said, "lol"
wepner01: folds
fabiaom: raises 900 to 1500
derkaderk: folds
SoSolidCrew: folds
Tanner199: folds
BigSynergy: calls 1200
MannieD: calls 900
*** FLOP *** [7s 6d Qd]
BigSynergy: bets 5530 and is all-in
MannieD: calls 5129 and is all-in
fabiaom: calls 5530
*** TURN *** [7s 6d Qd] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [7s 6d Qd Ac] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BigSynergy: shows [Kh Kd] (a pair of Kings)
fabiaom: shows [7d As] (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
fabiaom collected 802 from side pot
MannieD: shows [Qh Jd] (a pair of Queens)
BigSynergy said, "bugger"
fabiaom collected 20287 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 21089 Main pot 20287. Side pot 802. | Rake 0
Board [7s 6d Qd Ac 3s]
Seat 1: mrpierre76 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: wepner01 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: fabiaom showed [7d As] and won (21089) with two pair, Aces and Sevens
Seat 4: derkaderk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: SoSolidCrew folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Tanner199 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: BigSynergy (small blind) showed [Kh Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 9: MannieD (big blind) showed [Qh Jd] and lost with a pair of Queens

NickyOD

padraig_f wrote:

it's approaching the bubble

I always ignore the bubble.

NickyOD

BigDragon wrote:

BigSynergy: shows [Kh Kd] (a pair of Kings)
fabiaom: shows [7d As] (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
fabiaom collected 802 from side pot
MannieD: shows [Qh Jd] (a pair of Queens)

That blows chunks dragon.

padraig_f

NickyOD wrote:

I always ignore the bubble.

I was more referring to how other players generally act approaching the bubble, i.e. you can give more credit than normal to a reraise.

henbane

padraig_f wrote:

I don't think a raise necessarily commits you, what's wrong with a raise to $1k and a fold to a reraise? You have a tight image, you're raising UTG and it's approaching the bubble, you don't need a supernatural read to consider folding JJ if you're reraised there.

It's not that close to the bubble. Playing with the bubble in mind this early is weak as hell.

$1k is a weak raise and horrible shortstack policy unless you want to induce someone to go over the top. Someone going over the top gives you next to no information and leaves you taking the blinds with $1k wasted and the blinds about to rise. Given what nicky has said about the big stacks, I don't think it's an option to fold to a reraise from any of them. The short stacks should give you a decent price once you've made a proper raise.

If you have a decent stack, you have options. In this instance, raise/fold is just píssing chips away.

Shortstack

BigDragon wrote:

PokerStars Game #2292602417: Tournament #10966748, Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2005/08/08 - 16:43:35 (ET)
Table '10966748 39' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: mrpierre76 (6263 in chips)
Seat 2: wepner01 (12555 in chips)
Seat 3: fabiaom (17649 in chips)
Seat 4: derkaderk (7757 in chips)
Seat 5: SoSolidCrew (12615 in chips)
Seat 6: Tanner199 (12188 in chips)
Seat 8: BigSynergy (7080 in chips)
Seat 9: MannieD (6679 in chips)
mrpierre76: posts the ante 50
wepner01: posts the ante 50
fabiaom: posts the ante 50
derkaderk: posts the ante 50
SoSolidCrew: posts the ante 50
Tanner199: posts the ante 50
BigSynergy: posts the ante 50
MannieD: posts the ante 50
BigSynergy: posts small blind 300
MannieD: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BigSynergy [Kh Kd]
mrpierre76: folds
derkaderk said, "live cards"
derkaderk said, "lol"
wepner01: folds
fabiaom: raises 900 to 1500
derkaderk: folds
SoSolidCrew: folds
Tanner199: folds
BigSynergy: calls 1200
MannieD: calls 900
*** FLOP *** [7s 6d Qd]
BigSynergy: bets 5530 and is all-in
MannieD: calls 5129 and is all-in
fabiaom: calls 5530
*** TURN *** [7s 6d Qd] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [7s 6d Qd Ac] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BigSynergy: shows [Kh Kd] (a pair of Kings)
fabiaom: shows [7d As] (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
fabiaom collected 802 from side pot
MannieD: shows [Qh Jd] (a pair of Queens)
BigSynergy said, "bugger"
fabiaom collected 20287 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 21089 Main pot 20287. Side pot 802. | Rake 0
Board [7s 6d Qd Ac 3s]
Seat 1: mrpierre76 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: wepner01 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: fabiaom showed [7d As] and won (21089) with two pair, Aces and Sevens
Seat 4: derkaderk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: SoSolidCrew folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Tanner199 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: BigSynergy (small blind) showed [Kh Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 9: MannieD (big blind) showed [Qh Jd] and lost with a pair of Queens

Mr Dragon you are guilty of slow playing KK. You were found guilty as charged and subsequently outdrawn as suitable punishment. By flat calling you give the big blind odds to call also and you dont want to be three way with big pairs (not in poker anyway). Re-Raise substantially and win a nice safe pot that increases your stack by 25%. Mind you he called your all in with second pair so he may have called pre-flop also.

BigDragon

Shortstack wrote:

Mr Dragon you are guilty of slow playing KK. You were found guilty as charged and subsequently outdrawn as suitable punishment. By flat calling you give the big blind odds to call also and you dont want to be three way with big pairs (not in poker anyway). Re-Raise substantially and win a nice safe pot that increases your stack by 25%. Mind you he called your all in with second pair so he may have called pre-flop also.

I know but in my defence...

Seat 3: Raise and re-raise with any Ax and I wanted to see the flop first. Nobody had put him to the test with a big raise on the flop.

Seat 9: Fuktard who I knew would call with paint pre-flop and only top pair after the flop.

My read was spot on, and I'm happy about it, I got what I wanted and was raped. It happens. However....

FCUK, FCUK, FCUK! :mad:

Tiffany

Maybe they're bi-curious.

padraig_f

henbane wrote:

It's not that close to the bubble. Playing with the bubble in mind this early is weak as hell.

After getting through 730 people, with 50 more to go until the money, I'd be surprised if several people aren't thinking about making the money. If someone puts in all their chips against an UTG raiser at this point, it's fairly safe to say they have a real hand.

henbane wrote:

$1k is a weak raise and horrible shortstack policy unless you want to induce someone to go over the top. Someone going over the top gives you next to no information and leaves you taking the blinds with $1k wasted and the blinds about to rise.

It's an UTG raise so it should carry more weight despite being a small raise. While many low-limit players don't appreciate the finer points of position, most of them do know that when someone raises UTG they usually have a big hand. I can't imagine that it would gather no information, and I think it's definitely better than committing your entire stack when there's a full table left to act.

Spiritus

I'm adjusting my AFDB and pushing. All in.

Imposter

Spiritus wrote:

I'm adjusting my AFDB and pushing. All in.

Go on post the link again. It's been at least a few hours since we last seen it

As for the JJ I think it's a raise to something like 1k and then a fold to a reraise unless we know the reraiser is a bit of an idiot. If it's just called by someone, postflop is tricky, with or without overcards on the board, but i'd probably let go of it easily without losing any more chips.

Spiritus

I'm not posting the link anymore.

I only did so before as a public service to those that are undergoing the unexplicable torment that is the "outdraw".

I'm like an aid worker. With a foil beanie.

Tackle

You have to ask yourself why you are playing hands as blatantly homosexual as JJ? A common mistake players make is to think that because they themselves are straight they can avoid the inherent gayness of these types of hands. Unfortunately as you found out that just isn't the case.

bohsman

Spiritus wrote:

I'm not posting the link anymore.

I only did so before as a public service to those that are undergoing the unexplicable torment that is the "outdraw".

I'm like an aid worker. With a foil beanie.

A what know? foil beanie? Its the green ones in the morning Ken

Spiritus

*shrug* see what happens when you dont wear one

NickyOD

Spiritus wrote:

*shrug* see what happens when you dont wear one

I hear they're all the rage in Kilkee.

Spiritus

LOL

I can't wait

henbane

padraig_f wrote:

It's an UTG raise so it should carry more weight despite being a small raise. While many low-limit players don't appreciate the finer points of position, most of them do know that when someone raises UTG they usually have a big hand. I can't imagine that it would gather no information, and I think it's definitely better than committing your entire stack when there's a full table left to act.

With a stack this short, raise/fold is just píssing away chips you could make use of later. You're about to take the blinds and the blinds will probably have gone up by the time you have the button. On a table which is playing "loose" with a number of "wreckless" big stacks, you have little or no fold equity for late position steals. This is one of the best hands you're likely to see in the near future. The $1k raise/fold option will leave you needing to steal successfully twice in the next round just to keep your stack where it is.

With less than $4k in chips (being anted on every hand) and blinds of 600/300, how much opportunity are you likely to have to outplay people later?

As for information gleaned from someone pushing over the top. I don't think you can restrict the hand range to AA-QQ. Enough people will re-raise a small raise with AK-AJo or worse, that I can't see how you have established enough information to make folding this valid. You have to be prepared to race for chips at some stage, and I would be looking to play for all my chips with a stack this small.

bus77

NickyOD wrote:

You are in the $10 MTT on PokerStars sitting on a stack of 5.5K.

There are 131 players left of the starting 861 and 81 get paid. It's at the 200/400/25 level with 5 minutes to go to the 300/600/50 level.

You are dealt JJ UTG. How do you proceed?

Post the bind and maybe take a small raise. Then wait for a third jack on the flop, if not then it's out on any raise if a higher card is on the table. Even if a third jack came up I still wouldnt raise, the amount of time's I've caught people trying to take the pot with nothing makes it well worth it.

5.5k is still a lot even with those binds.

Waylander

5.5K is less then 10BB in 5 minutes. I think I would be making moves with this hand to try and improve my position. Raise to about 4 BB and hope for a nice flop.

Ste05

I think I'd also push in here, even though the whole table still has to act, you need to push. I'd obviously be hoping for no action and just pick up the blinds, but chances are if you're called you're in a 50 50 situation which is fine too, as has been said you need to be willing to race for chips at certain times.

Another point that seems to have been overlooked, is in relation to a small raise and folding to a re-raise, apart from what it would do to your table image, I feel that at this stage of a tournament, alot of the donkeys have been knocked out and most players left know the basics at least. And UTG if a small stack raises small, e.g. 2x BB it looks like they are pot committed, but want action with a monster hand, an all-in move is IMHO showing more weakness than a smaller raise, it stinks of wanting someone to go over the top and then calling.

So I wouldn't discount this move outright.