How do motorcyclists survive (or not)?

Victor

How do motorcyclists survive (or not)? More motorcyclists (incl mopeds, scoters) are being killed than pedestrians. How can motorcyclists sanely get back on the road?



http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics98/nroadstats.html

airetam_storm

I was always told that a motorbike is a surefire way to land yourself in hospital, and the gamble is whether its serious or not

Kinetic^

Victor wrote:

How do motorcyclists survive (or not)? More motorcyclists (incl mopeds, scoters) are being killed than pedestrians. How can motorcyclists sanely get back on the road?



http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics98/nroadstats.html

I've taken a few knocks,one big one,took me a while to get back on the bike but i'm very careful(ish) now.Not saying that if you get knocked down it makes you a better rider,just gives you a bit of cop-on that motorists don't see you think that a motorcyclist will undertake them etc.

Guy:Incognito

Last years road deaths were only up 47 on 1961 and 2003's were only up 7 on 1961, thats never bad considering the amount of cars no wcompared to then. Course safer cars account for a lot too.

Still nearly 400 unfortunate deaths, but the lower the better.

1970 - 85 was a bad time, consistantly in the high 500's with a high of 640.

tk123

I'd like to see the figures broken down into licenced and unlicenced...it's all down to training i thinks...I've done training and i've been told i'm a good driver so I'm happy to have an extra snooze in the morning and then take my 10min drive into work!!
EDIT - my strategy is that everyone else on the road is out to squish me - as long as i'm aware of them and my surroundings i'll be ok...well i have been so far...

Kinetic^

tk123 wrote:

I'd like to see the figures broken down into licenced and unlicenced...it's all down to training i thinks...I've done training and i've been told i'm a good driver so I'm happy to have an extra snooze in the morning and then take my 10min drive into work!!

Since i did the lessons for my test,I havent had an accident,that was 3 years ago.

edit: which i passed by the way.

isolde

i only drive a little moped, but i have to say i do worry sometimes. when i see a big truck coming behind me at a good speed, i hang on tight! i generally wear a bag on my back to make me feel more balanced. have never had a serious crash but a tumble or two. thank god for gloves, thats all i can say.

RicardoSmith

tk123 wrote:

....it's all down to training i thinks...I've done training and i've been told i'm a good driver ...

Problem is the person who hits you won't be...

seamus

tk123 wrote:

I'd like to see the figures broken down into licenced and unlicenced...it's all down to training i thinks.

Actually, I'd like to see the motorcyclist figures heavily broken down to see exactly what's happening - i.e. Age of driver, licence status, insurance status (very important), size of the bike, position of the fatality (i.e. driver or passenger). Preferably cross-referenced, so one could see, for example, how many passengers killed were being carried by a provisional driver. I'd say there'd be many unexpected things in there.

From what I've seen recently (maybe it's the summer, but are bikers getting worse?), it's a combination of luck and pure balls that stops the majority of bikers from being killed. For example - in last Friday's heavy rain, travelling in a car down the M50, overtaking lane, coming up to pass a truck in the driving lane. About 15 meters between truck and car, spray *everywhere*, v. poor visibility. High-powered bike undertakes car in the driving lane, then squeezes through and overtakes the truck, and lashes on the throttle halfway through the manouver. OK, this can be carried out relatively safely, in the right conditions, if it is a bit of an aggressive, inconsiderate manouver. But at 70mph, on an absolutely soaked road, that's pure idiocy.

Stuff like that makes my blood boil. I'm paying high insurance cos of that crap.

Alfasudcrazy

Main reason I sold my Bandit 600 was that its even more dangerous to drive too slowly than too quickly. I never used the bike in the dark or rain but got caught out a few times (delayed at work etc) and had to drive in the dark and in the rain.
There was more danger from the speeding cars coming from behind me than anything else and I had to drive at a speed which was unsafe for the conditions.
Motorists are so dumb and arrogant as they simply do not appreciate the visibility difficulty motor cyclists have in poor conditions at night time. :mad:

isolde

Had to drive across the city centre in that heavy rain last week (or was it the week before...), on the main road coming from the Loughlinstown direction towards the city centre (the N11, i think) got beeped at 5 times by cars - I was generally driving at about 10km under the speed limit, which I appreciate is slower than they wanted to go, but I was keeping out of peoples way as much as I possibly could, and the wind was so strong and rain so heavy.

After being beeped at the 5th time, I pulled over to see if my bag was open or there was some problem with my bike or something, because surely there had to be!! But no, people were just getting annoyed at the speed I was going, I guess. One lorry went flying by me in the other lane, absolutely soaking me and nearly knocking me off the bike, and then beeped. Couldn't understand it.

opus

Victor wrote:

How do motorcyclists survive (or not)? More motorcyclists (incl mopeds, scoters) are being killed than pedestrians. How can motorcyclists sanely get back on the road?

Well if you get into the mindset of looking at every car with suspicion then it helps. I always assume they haven't seen me on the bike so act accordingly.

tk123

RicardoSmith wrote:

Problem is the person who hits you won't be...

Ah but I take that into account!!

ntlbell

tk123 wrote:

Ah but I take that into account!!

There's no accounting for the idiots on irish roads.

saobh_ie

I second ntlbell.

I don't have a high opinion of my skill, and I didn't have one before I got run over by that Volvo driver who didn't yield, use the roundabout correctly, look around, and did loads of things wrong while I tried desperately to escape changing my speed and direction four times in four seconds while she changed her's while giving misleading signals and looks. Eventually she hit me.

But I'm amazed at how I didn't loose control of the machine while I was doing those manoeuvres, I was on an unfamiliar bike at the time too, but the sheer amount of practise at taking evasive action during my early months on the bike were fresh in my head. When I started off on the bike I lacked the experience to recognise when somebody was going to do something silly, I was constantly e-stopping and swerving, and swerving and e-stopping together (with varied success, I never hit anything or put anyone else in danger but I did occasionally end up stopping in less than full control of my machine).

Later I never had to e-stop, swerves were replaced by extremely slow leisurely changes of position that all thanks to the great deal of training I took., not for the purposes of passing the laughable DOT test but staying alive because its dangerous out there. That incident saddened me in the fact that you can be on the ball, cruising along at a nice relaxing pace, in extremely light traffic and suddenly find yourself in a rapidly developing dangerous situation, and be unable to escape no matter what you do.

Thankfully I was able to limit the impact, having twice been presented with the broadside of her vehicle across my front (usually fatal or worse) and managing just to sideswipe her.

Its absolutely nuts out there and the casualties’ rate this year and the recent sensationalism in the press is not helping the situation any.

Both riders (of bikes and scooters) and other vehicle drivers need to be educated about how to use the roads, and even just the basics of observation and planning.

Hotblack Desiato

There is always this sensationalism about motorbike fatalities every couple of years. Makes for great headlines for those who don't understand statistics and the variations a small sample size (~2% of motor vehicles) will encounter. Fatalities have a lot of "randomness"; luck can turn a near-miss into a fatality, or vice-versa. Some years we're collectively lucky and some years we're not.

A "good" year is never reported, but when things return to trend the next year it is always reported as "shocking increase in bike fatalities" :mad:

The overall trend is downwards in absolute terms. There's also been a very substantial increase in the number of bikes on the road in the last ten years.

There are plenty of things which the government can and should do - e.g. L-plates for bikes, legalise bikes in bus lanes, force councils to maintain roads better, enforce provisional licence rules for both bikes and cars.

But the media do love their "death wish" stories about "snarling brain-dead morons" as the Evening Herald once memorably described us. :mad:

Training is vitally important for all road users. Compulsory basic training for bikes only will help to some extent but proper testing and training for all road users will help a lot more.

Victor

For motorbikes

seamus wrote:

Age of driver,

Peaks in mid thirties

licence status,

Not published, but may be available.

insurance status (very important),

Not published, but may be available.

size of the bike,

Not published, but may be available.

position of the fatality (i.e. driver or passenger).

Published, disproportionate (to travelling public) bias towards drivers.

seamus

Victor wrote:

Peaks in mid thirties

Really? Curious, in the UK, it peaks at 17 (apparently). Could this be due to the absence of mandatory training?

Published, disproportionate (to travelling public) bias towards drivers.

Well, I'd always assume that the bias would be towards the driver, but not necessarily dispropotionate. After all, the vast majority of crashes occur where only driver is on the vehicle. Have you a link?

neilCC

What else can you do?
Give up biking because there are too many idiots on the roads?
I won't do that just yet. I've been biking into work through the (Dublin) city centre for over 7 years.

I've only had one bad accident that resulted in a fractured leg for me. That collision occured when a car driver pulled out from a side road into a yellow box junction that I was passing through, in heavy traffic. He pulled out and drove into my leg. He has since denied liability, so we'll be taking it to the courts.

I think the apparent standard of motorcyclists generally seems to fall every summer time. I'm sure there must be a lot of fair-weather bikers out there.
I use mine throughout the year.

The road surfaces all around this country are pathetic. The amount of dirt and gravel on the streets is incedible, making the operation of two wheeled vehicles very tricky.
Also, other road users, namely car drivers, need to be more aware of other vehicles out there. A motorcycle is small and doesn't pose much danger to someone in an SUV or fat Merc, so they're slower to react to situations as they would be if the other vehicle were a truck or a bus.

Bicyclists have it worse in my opinion.
At least I've got an engine and can often quickly drive out of a dangerous situation.

jimbling

I remember getting a leaflet in the door sometime last year... or maybe the year before. It was trying to create awareness in car drivers... ie to be aware of bikers.

anyhow... one of the stats on it, was that 75% of all motorbike crashes (where more that just the motorbike was involved) are the fault of the other driver.

Not at all surprising in my book.... I recently sold my bike, and now have none for the first time in 6 years.

For 4 of those years, my bike was my only mode of transport so was used in all weather. I have never crashed. I put this down to one thing.
OBSERVATION

On a bike you need to be completely aware of whats around you all the time. It makes you realise what donkeys drive on the roads today...... and keeps you safe.

There is always the case that if something goes wrong your screwed... but wtf can you do about that..... take the risk and if it happens it happens.. just dont let it be your fault.

RicardoSmith

Nearly all bikers are knocked down by people who just didn't see them. You need to be visible, but more than that you need to make other road users see you. You need to make the bike have the presence of a bus.

I'm always amazed in poor light how cyclists even lit up like a christmas tree can be invisible if theres a strong head lights behind them.

Supercell

Many lucky~ish escapes in first few years driving..don't drive on motorways as common sense seems to go out the window on car drivers..especially in wet conditions. Irish motorways are a no NO.

Always make sure you are ahead of the traffic..never in it as many car drivers either seem to think they driving an artic lorry or a morris minors and behave accordingly...staying in common car traffic very very dangerous..stay well ahead..(behind means you will have to brake suddenly often as they change lanes..brake for no apparent reason etc)

I did come close many a time in my first few years..now i've learned basically to avoid being bunched up in car traffic (drive in the bus lanes where possible..its a LOT safer and the gardí turn a bling eye if you are not speeding and are displaying good road sense..i've even folowed biker Gardí down the bus lane..prolly trying this on with the car driving variety isnt wise!!) , where no bus lanes ..dont go on the motorways .. the inevitable boy racer comes within two car lenghts of your back tyre (at 120kph rain or shine)..move into the slow lane and let the fool continue on to his first traffic accidant (and hope its his last also).

Avoid motorways ..esp in the wet...

Stay ahead of the traffic

Use the bus lanes..

Live long and prosper!!

Did I mention that Irish motorways are full of insanely bad drivers?

Horatio

I'v been biking for some time now and I have to say I will never
give it up for the "safer" car. Being on a bike allows you a complete
sense of freedom from the rest of the world.
Driving a bike in this day and age is dangerous but no-one who undertakes
the life of a biker enters into it with their eyes shut. I would say
that the vast majority of bikers are safe and very competent riders
and are very aware of everyone aroud them. Lets face it, a lapse
in your concentration on a bike can see you under the wheels of a semi
in short order.

oh in addition to bad car drivers the worst danger to a rider
these days is muppets on scooters !
They show apsolutely no regard for themselves or others.

Turner

Remember an episode of E.R before where they referred to motorbikes as Donorbikes....

5 bikes passed me in a convoy on the M1 yesterday, i was doing 85mph.. they must have been doin 120mph+. Kinda cool to see but dont think id like to have been on one of them... Any stray stone/bird could have meant R.I.P

Hotblack Desiato

Chief--- wrote:

5 bikes passed me in a convoy on the M1 yesterday, i was doing 85mph.. they must have been doin 120mph+. Kinda cool to see but dont think id like to have been on one of them... Any stray stone/bird could have meant R.I.P

Not really, 150mph isn't exceptional on a German autobahn, the bike manufacturers do test bikes at their maximum speeds as do the tyre manufacturers. Legalities aside, speed itself isn't dangerous - but circumstances can make it dangerous. Going 40-50mph faster than the traffic in the lane beside you definitely isn't wise, especially given the clueless behaviour of most Irish motorway users.

RicardoSmith

ninja900 wrote:

Not really, 150mph isn't exceptional on a German autobahn, the bike manufacturers do test bikes at their maximum speeds as do the tyre manufacturers. Legalities aside, speed itself isn't dangerous - but circumstances can make it dangerous. Going 40-50mph faster than the traffic in the lane beside you definitely isn't wise, especially given the clueless behaviour of most Irish motorway users.

There only certain stretches of autobahn, specificially marked where you have unlimited speeds. So 150mph should only be usual in those locations. That said people break the limit everywhere. But 150mph in Ireland has to be unusual. 110-120 on the m50 isn't that unusual. Everytime I'm on the M50 I must see between 1 and 5 people doing well over the ton.

Maybe it nots unusual for you though... :eek:

Alun

Speaking as someone who lived in Germany and Holland for the last 20 years before moving here, I can say that 150mph (240km/h) definitely is the exception, whatever you might think. Ok, you do see cars or bikes travelling at that speed sometimes, but nowadays it's very much the exception rather than the rule. Add on that many sections of autobahn are now restricted to 100km/h or 120km/h, and the Richtgeschwindigkeit of 130km/h above which if you have an accident you are allocated part of the blame regardless of whether it's your fault or not, and the endless traffic jams ...

I regularly drove there in excess of 200km/h, but anything above that, although possible for very short stretches, would have been exceedingly dangerous. Tourists, especially Dutch ones in caravans, pulling out into your path at 100km/h, deer running across the road at night, American forces cars cruising at 55mph in the overtaking lane, .....

I'd say that the bulk of traffic on the autobahns these days, where allowed, would be doing around 130km/h, with large numbers between that and 160km/h, a few up to 180km/h or thereabouts and above that relatively few.

sutty

I've been driving bikes for 3 years now. I have come off twice. The first time was due to low visibility (light drizzle rain and no lighting on a turn and a few MPH to high a speed for the turn) I ended up clipping the curb and plowing my-self into the ground (mud at this point). The second time was taking a turn in very icey conditions. Turn was done right. very low MPH, foot down, and no leaning. But still the back came out from beneath me as someone had poured water on the road. (Just at the apartments before camdon street) I still slid a few feet but no damage done. The biker cop that was coming up behind me and turned to see if I was ok, done the very same and ended up a few feet beside me.

I had one major crash which left my bike a write off. I was driving into work at around 8:40/45am. It was the very start of September (the 5th) When I over took a car changing lanes on the N4 just before the M50 roundabout. I changed lane to the inside lane to either go to Dublin city or to go south bound on the M50. I was coming up to traffic. Which was taking off. How ever for some reason (either the driver fell asleep, was hung over, was tired) the driver ahead of me swerved for no reason. Crashing into a Sabb that was in the center lane. Then he bounced back in front of me. I hit him at between 25MPH-35MPH. I got slammed into the back of his car. I was pealing my-self off his car at the same time the car I had just over taken stopped and the lady was getting out to see if I was ok. After getting my-self off the car (about 40sec after the crash) I walked around to the passengers side of the car. To find that the drive had not a clue as to what was happening and his radio blaring. (they settled out of court there a month and a bit ago)

End of the day, if a crash is going to happen, it will happen. I have often narrowly escaped a crash from behind or my side. From the side is normally people changing lanes and not looking to see what was in the lane at the time. From behind is normally people not keeping a safe distance from the back of the bike. Most car drivers do not know that if they knock off your back wheel that you will come off and more than likely under their car. I've had people over take me while I was in the middle of a turn to the right hand side. Indicted in all. Yet the person still felt the need to over take me on the right even though I was fully leaning into the turn at this stage. I have had people come up from behind and even force me into an other lane as they just keep coming up and try to "fit in" the lane with both of us there. One of the times I even had my old flat mate on the back of the bike!

Almost every day I get people pulling out in front of me as I drive through ranalagha (spell) That place has all the lights in the wrong places. I'm an every day driver. No matter what the condition is, I will drive my bike to work or friends. However the ones that come out for the nice weather are the ones that will cause a crash them-self’s. More than likely being unaware of the road surface

Hotblack Desiato

RicardoSmith wrote:

There only certain stretches of autobahn, specificially marked where you have unlimited speeds. So 150mph should only be usual in those locations.

Somewhat bad choice of words on my part earlier. Not usual, but it does happen, and under the right circumstances it's not that big a deal.

But 150mph in Ireland has to be unusual.

Except when the road races are on, but even then not on all circuits... If we had unlimited motorways (and no traffic) there'd still be few enough places where you could get up to that speed before reaching a hazard.

Maybe it's not unusual for you though...

Ha, I'm well on my way to becoming a boring old fart now

murphaph

Well, I started riding a bike on Tuesday and was knocked off on Saturday morning. I was pottering into work and as I approached a T-junction wanting to turn right a woman cut the corner turning right off the main road, clipping my front wheel and knocking me over, breaking an indicator stem. Cheers love! Nice driving. She said she didn't see me :rolleyes:

She was nigerian and started driving 4 days before the accident. Driving unaccompanied on her first provisional (presumably she had one?). I don't mean to sound racist but there seems to be a disproportionate amount of bad driving from blacks (and that's saying something given that Irish people are pretty appaling to begin with!). I know anecdotaly of many crashes/bumps/scrapes in the car park of my employer caused by african staff, there have been some incidents I've heard of involving non-africans but hardly any in comparison and there are far more non-africans than africans. One nigerian woman managed to damage not 3 but 4 cars as she 'reversed' into a parking space, hitting everything around her. Don't ask me how she hit the 4th one. The woman had no insurance and admitted as much when the Guards arrived.

The Guards need to clamp down on unaccompanied drivers of all nationalities and the silly 2nd provisional rule needs to go, ah hang it, the whole gammut of driver training needs reform.

By the way, I've been driving a car for years and had no tips, 4 days on a bike and I'm involved in an accident. I was sort of expecting it but not quite so soon.

RicardoSmith

ninja900 wrote:

Somewhat bad choice of words on my part earlier. Not usual, but it does happen, and under the right circumstances it's not that big a deal.
Except when the road races are on, but even then not on all circuits... If we had unlimited motorways (and no traffic) there'd still be few enough places where you could get up to that speed before reaching a hazard.
Ha, I'm well on my way to becoming a boring old fart now

The point is that at 150mph you need to be anticipating at least quarter of a mile (if not further) ahead of you, as soon as you notice a problem you are on top if it, and if you have someone move out in front of you with out looking in the mirror, you're in trouble.