Are the fish drowning the sharks?

Fatboydim · 07-08-2005 5:43pm #1

I haven’t played for a while on Betfair … It used to be a tight site with some very good players – Kpnuts plays there. But it seems to be full of fish now… And I think the fish are in danger of drowning the sharks. I offer the following as an example. First of all let me say that I am not happy with the way I played this hand … I would usually flat call with mid pair or put in a small raise. As it was with only one player calling the big blind in front of me and the big blind to act I felt a large raise would let me take the blinds uncontested. I was wrong.

---HAND 6

Game #802864773: Texas Hold'em No Limit (10/20) - 2005/08/07 - 18:03:15 (GMT)
Table "CPC_MAIN 872924 - 6" Seat 4 is the button.
Seat 1: h simpson (2500 in chips)
Seat 2: Nige29093 (2190 in chips)
Seat 3: TigerCat (2370 in chips)
Seat 4: Stellafel (2350 in chips)
Seat 5: Fatboydim (2480 in chips)
Seat 6: Mihay (2380 in chips)
Seat 7: StackBash (2960 in chips)
Seat 8: RazorStev (2500 in chips)
Seat 9: Dfish (2770 in chips)
Seat 10: Hoochie sits out
Fatboydim: posts small blind 10
Mihay: posts big blind 20

HOLE CARDS

dealt to Fatboydim [8h 8s]
StackBash: folds
RazorStev: folds
Dfish: folds
Hoochie: folds
Hoochie sits back
h simpson: folds
Nige29093: calls 20
TigerCat: folds
Stellafel: folds
Fatboydim: raises to 540
Mihay: folds
Nige29093: calls 520

FLOP

[Kh 5d Ah]
Fatboydim: bets 340
Nige29093: calls 340

TURN

[Kh 5d Ah][2s]
Fatboydim: bets 320
Nige29093: calls 320

RIVER

[Kh 5d Ah 2s][5h]
Fatboydim: bets 260
Nige29093: raises to 520
Fatboydim: raises to 1280 and is all-in
Nige29093: is all-in 470
Returned uncalled bets 290 to Fatboydim

SHOW DOWN

Fatboydim: shows [8h 8s] (Two Pairs, Eights and Fives, Ace high)
Nige29093: shows [7h 6h] (A Flush, Ace high)
Nige29093 collected 4400 from Main pot

SUMMARY

Total pot 4400 Main pot 4400 Rake 0
Board [Kh 5d Ah 2s 5h]
Seat 1: h simpson folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Nige29093 showed [7h 6h] and won (4400) with A Flush, Ace high
Seat 3: TigerCat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Stellafel (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Mihay (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: StackBash folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: RazorStev folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Dfish folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Hoochie folded before Flop (didn't bet)

But I was convinced the player concerned held neither an ace or a king as he was in late position and opted not to raise. As I bet the flop and he didn’t raise I suspected he may be on a pocket pair as well. There was also the possibility of the flush draw. I should have gone all in on the turn as essentially thats what I ended up doing… But I wanted to conserve chips in case he was trapping. By the time the river came I opted for one small bet in case but forgot about the flush draw until he raised. The raise was tentative which made me think he was afraid of the flush and therefore I made my betting pattern look like a check raise. I was amazed when I saw his cards.

I never play this badly live… [well sometimes] I think it’s time I got back to work on my computer and left the fish alone… because some of them are poisonous.

BTW if I am a shark it's a Baskin - toothless and only dangerous to plankton

impr0v · 07-08-2005 8:00pm

Was bad play by him, he had to figure he was behind with an A and K on the flop, considering your raise pre-flop, but he obviously likes to chase the odd weak flush. You could have put him all in on the turn, but flat-calling the blind and then calling a 320 raise, followed by a flat-call of the same bet on the flop, would look to me like a AA/KK/AK being slow played and, as you mentioned, a possible trap.

88 has been kind to me today as well, picked it up on the BB three-handed in an stt, , blinds 100/200, UTG raised 1k, sb called and I re-raised all-in for another 4k. UTG folds and sb calls for 95% of her stack with A2! Two A's for a set on the board and I'm out. Chip leader says 'That was a big call with A rag', she says 'I had a feeling I could beat him'. Long may such calls continue.

Hectorjelly · 07-08-2005 8:42pm

He played the hand better than you did. First of all there is a 26 bb raise with 88. You are betting 540 of your chips in order to pick up 50. Why do you want those 50 chips so much? But not only that, you're not only betting 540 to pick up 50 (which is bad), but you then pay the guy off with your stack on a flop with 3 hearts and 2 overcards.

Then you bet the flop. Your bet on the flop is so small compared to the size of the pot that you dont really get much information, and you dont price out draws. There is over 1k in the pot and you bet 340. Giving a lovely price for any draws out there. On the turn you compound this problem by betting even smaller. Once the bet on the flop is called you either need to push here or to check. Betting that small amount is just haemorrhaging chips for no return.

Then on the river you bet even smaller. Do you think you might be leaking information with the size of you bets? There are now 2 overcards, one of the undercards has paired and the flush draw has been completed. Why bet at all? For you to be ahead the other guy would have to have 66 or 77. All of his other possible holding were ahead, and becuase of your diminishing bets you had no chance of pushing any marginal holdings out. Then he raised you on the river. Small raises on the river are rarely tentative holdings, and even if he did have a hand that might fold to a raise, you probbably need more than 700 chips to push him off a 4k pot.

In comparison his play isnt that bad. The preflop call is loose but if he is getting great implied odds.

RasTa · 07-08-2005 9:07pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

He played the hand better than you did. First of all there is a 26 bb raise with 88.

Dont agree with you there, he called that raise with suited connectors. Whatever after the flop he was going to go all in to hit his flush. Total fish

pokertroll · 07-08-2005 9:13pm

I dont want to come across as overly critical but here's my thoughts on the hand in question.

In summary, I think you bet way too much before the flop and way too small on the flop and turn. The only 'fishy' play was the call before the flop but you will even see good players call raises with this trash from time to time.

Why did you raise so much before the flop - 27*BB - surely you could have put in a lot less. I would be thinking somebody with a strong A or pocket pair would be betting maybe about 4*BB at most before the flop.

Actually, the amount of money you put in before the flop caused you to play the hand way too strongly. Had you put in a smaller amount, you would have been less inclined to invest further money into the flop with the 2 overcards and flush draw out there.

Next you bet too small on the flop and turn and priced your opponent in.

There was 1080 in the pot once the flop was dealt.
After your bet of 320 on the flop, you were asking for your opponent to pay 320 into a pot of 1400 which gives him about 9/2 pot odds. Taking into account the implied odds if he hits it is an easy call!

After the turn is dealt, you bet smaller again (why??) for 260 creating pot of of size 1720+260=1980 (I would call)

So its costing him 260 to win 1980 which is 15/2. (Easy call)

Once the river was dealt you should have either folded or flat called his bet as he was never gonna fold

pokertroll · 07-08-2005 9:20pm

Didn't realize you had put in the same reply Hector ;-)

califano · 07-08-2005 10:11pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

First of all there is a 26 bb raise with 88. You are betting 540 of your chips in order to pick up 50. Why do you want those 50 chips so much?

i believe most players who raise so much pre flop especially with blinds so low do it not to steal the blinds but primarily in the hope that a.)another player with a smaller pair will go all in(and they do) or b.) to get lucky in a race with somebody that will re-raise all in with AK AQ. i dont believe in this tactic unless your well below average because mostly when you get called your behind.

Fatboydim · 07-08-2005 10:55pm

Like I said at the top I wouldn't normally play it that way... and indeed the only reason I raised that much was because A] if I had raised less I would have got a caller because of the point I'm making... and B] I didn't expect the call because of the size of the raise. Had the call come from the BB I also would have played differently. I f**ked up... that happens. I know what I should have done. But it still doesn't excuse his play... and the thing is... I don't believe he thought for a moment about the betting ... only that if he hit a flush he would win. I believe that had I gone all in on the flop or turn he still would have called... Hence the point of the post. He wasn't even drawing to a high flush. Also the pattern of betting was not quite as dumb as it seems since it could look like a sucker bet for someone who is holding AK or AQ - after all you wouldn't put the caller on the flush draw would you? But clearly I win the f**tard of the day award for compounding my error... Hope I do better in Luton tomorrow night lol

califano · 07-08-2005 11:11pm

yeah unlucky by being called pre flop by that trash. if that was me betting the flop(which i probably wouldnt have betted as i would have suspected he caught some of it) and being called it would have been my last attempt, i dont think you were gonna ever shake him off after that. point taken that you dont usually play middle pairs like that and its good and brave to see posts of people being critical of their own play rather than ones about how they played it right and got sucked out on, or how they played it right and someone else played it terrible. what tournament are you playing in luton? good luck in it.

NickyOD · 07-08-2005 11:22pm

I didn't bother reading any more once I saw the preflop raise. wtf?

Hectorjelly · 07-08-2005 11:51pm

Fatboydim wrote:

Like I said at the top I wouldn't normally play it that way... and indeed the only reason I raised that much was because A] if I had raised less I would have got a caller because of the point I'm making... and B] I didn't expect the call because of the size of the raise. Had the call come from the BB I also would have played differently. I f**ked up... that happens. I know what I should have done. But it still doesn't excuse his play... and the thing is... I don't believe he thought for a moment about the betting ... only that if he hit a flush he would win. I believe that had I gone all in on the flop or turn he still would have called... Hence the point of the post. He wasn't even drawing to a high flush. Also the pattern of betting was not quite as dumb as it seems since it could look like a sucker bet for someone who is holding AK or AQ - after all you wouldn't put the caller on the flush draw would you? But clearly I win the f**tard of the day award for compounding my error... Hope I do better in Luton tomorrow night lol

If you want to raise with 88 thats fine, but in most situations you need to luck at all of the variables involved, with the cards just one of them. Firstly you need to understand why you are raising. Usually you raise to build the pot with a good hand. In this case by the size of your raise you obviously want to kill the hand preflop, but why? It makes no difference to your stack if you win the hand. You are risking 10 times what is in the pot to pick up a very meagre holding.

Secondly, I dont think you can critisise his play at all. He made a loose call preflop, but then played perfectly from then on. You cant expect him to fold a flush draw on either the flop or the turn based on your tiny bets. The fact that he is drawing to a small flush is completely beside the point in a heads up pot. You cant critisise a players hand by giving out about what they might of done in a different scenario. Perhaps he was a bad player and would of called bets without getting even near the right odds, but you gave him very good odds, and based on this hand he is not a horrible player.

Your pattern of betting was of someone who raised with a marginaly good hand like JJ and then got scared of the flop but couldnt quite face hitting that check button. Then on the river you decided to decided to try and push someone off a 4k pot with 700 chips, despite there being no clear hand for you to represent. Both the A and K of hearts are on the board so for you to have a flush you had to raise with a non pair hand that doesnt have an Ace of a King in it. This is after him min raising you on the river when the flush did hit. If he was scared off the flush then he would of flat called.

mewso · 08-08-2005 12:46am

You say you need to raise big for these fish to fold well then in this case with the blinds so small just call. In the later stages of a tourney you can raise big to much better effect and with the blinds actually being worth stealling. I prefer to sleep for the first level unless the hand is good enough to wake me up.

Waylander · 08-08-2005 10:41am

A big raise like that prefop out of the blue can often arouse supicion in other players. After the dubious preflop call, he was priced in at every round of betting. You should have bet the pot after the flop and forced him to make a decision. He had better then 3-1 on his call post flop.

ocallagh · 08-08-2005 1:39pm

FatboyDim, I agree you did not play the hand well!!

As Musician said, you don't need to get involved in any pots without a decent hand until the blinds are worth something. Your large pre-flop raise will get called by a huge range of hands online and 88 is a tough hand to play on the flop.

I do agree with you on the pre-flop call. IMO, 67s was a bad call, not a loose call. These hands are only playable when the pot size is relatively low compared to stack sizes, when the implied odds make it worth the gamble.
He played the rest of the hand fine.

You want to keep the pots low against the fish. Don't give them a chance to outdraw you. You don't want to commit 1/5 of your chips with an avg hand.. Fish will call with anything from A9 to TJ,QJ,KQ etc.. By making that bet you have given them a chance to outdraw you for a large chunk of your chips. In an ideal world, 77 will push but how often does that happen?? 99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA will also push.. The only way to play 88 against poor players is to call and slow play the set(if it hits). Otherwise throw the hand away unless you have a good reason to continue with it, and as musician said - wait for the blinds to increase b4 u attempt to steal.

Fatboydim · 10-08-2005 12:51pm

Two hands from my last game on Betfair:

----HAND 16

Game #822111413: Texas Hold'em No Limit (200/400) - 2005/08/10 - 13:28:58 (GMT)
Table "Tourney 917498 - 1" Seat 9 is the button.
Seat 2: bybow (6960 in chips)
Seat 4: Anglosaxo (2195 in chips)
Seat 5: Fatboydim (11835 in chips)
Seat 6: nomis (7730 in chips)
Seat 7: Rockey (8565 in chips)
Seat 9: Knottend (4360 in chips)
Seat 10: 666PEP (16148 in chips)
666PEP: posts the ante 50
bybow: posts the ante 50
Anglosaxo: posts the ante 50
Fatboydim: posts the ante 50
nomis: posts the ante 50
Rockey: posts the ante 50
Knottend: posts the ante 50
666PEP: posts small blind 200
bybow: posts big blind 400

HOLE CARDS

dealt to Fatboydim [4c Ac]
Anglosaxo: folds
Fatboydim: calls 400
nomis: folds
Rockey: folds
Knottend: calls 400
666PEP: calls 200
bybow: checks

FLOP

[7c 9c 7d]
666PEP: checks
bybow: checks
Fatboydim: bets 400
Knottend: folds
666PEP: raises to 800
bybow: calls 800
Fatboydim: calls 400

TURN

[7c 9c 7d][2c]
666PEP: checks
bybow: bets 1200
Fatboydim: calls 1200
666PEP: folds

RIVER

[7c 9c 7d 2c][Jd]
bybow: bets 4510 and is all-in
Fatboydim: calls 4510

SHOW DOWN

bybow: shows [7h 9d] (A Full House, Sevens full of Nines)
Fatboydim: shows [4c Ac] (A Flush, Ace high)
bybow collected 15770 from Main pot

Think I had to call him. Yes he was on BB but as he never raised the flop afte a bet and raise his hand strength was disguised. If he had the FH good luck to him.

But then shortly after this happened.

HAND 25

Game #822142003: Texas Hold'em No Limit (200/400) - 2005/08/10 - 13:36:00 (GMT)
Table "Tourney 917498 - 1" Seat 4 is the button.
Seat 2: bybow (15470 in chips)
Seat 4: Anglosaxo (2740 in chips)
Seat 5: Fatboydim (2430 in chips)
Seat 7: Rockey (7515 in chips)
Seat 9: Knottend (7260 in chips)
Seat 10: 666PEP (14798 in chips)
Fatboydim: posts the ante 50
Rockey: posts the ante 50
Knottend: posts the ante 50
666PEP: posts the ante 50
bybow: posts the ante 50
Anglosaxo: posts the ante 50
Fatboydim: posts small blind 200
Rockey: posts big blind 400

HOLE CARDS

dealt to Fatboydim [8h 7s]
Knottend: folds
666PEP: folds
bybow: folds
Anglosaxo: folds
Fatboydim: calls 200
Rockey: checks

FLOP

[6s 5d 9s]
Fatboydim: bets 800
Rockey: raises to 7065 and is all-in
Fatboydim: is all-in 1180
Returned uncalled bets 5,085 to Rockey

TURN

[6s 5d 9s][9d]

RIVER

[6s 5d 9s 9d][4d]

SHOW DOWN

Rockey: shows [4s 9h] (A Full House, Nines full of Fours)
Fatboydim: shows [8h 7s] (A Straight, Nine high)
Rockey collected 5060 from Main pot

SUMMARY

Total pot 5060 Main pot 5060 Rake 0
Board [6s 5d 9s 9d 4d]
Seat 2: bybow folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Anglosaxo (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Rockey (big blind) showed [4s 9h] and won (5060) with A Full House, Nines full of Fours

All in with a pair of nines with bad kicker? I understand he didn't want me to catch but still this was the bubble - LOL.

Are the fish drowning the sharks?

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