Blade Styles and Their Origins

Musashi

I know some of the lads berate me for this, but I have another excerpt which might make sense to the Atienza and Sayoc Kali lads, as well as any one doing Iado,Kendo,Norse or European blade fencing ,or lads just into historical combat styles.
For your edification and discussion I humbly present.......................

Originally posted by "SouthNarc" on www.shivworks.com

"In the June 2002 issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine an article by Bill Bagwell titled The Blade in War, was published. The piece is a historical overview of bladed combat over the ages. Bagwell begins with a look at how many casualties were inflicted in various battles over history in his treatise on the lethality of edged weapons, and moves from there into some thoughts and suppositions on the kind of men who waged primitive warfare.

It was this portion of the article that peaked my interest as Bagwell has some very insightful things to say about the generations of yore and what it took to be a warrior. What I've done is to cut out that portion of the article and let it stand alone. What follows are Bagwell's words and I think that he really hits several points home that the student of modern combatives would be wise to heed.

Excerpted from The Blade in War; Soldier of Fortune magazine, June 2002

To quote from the Mongol war creed: "The vanquished can never be friends of the victor; the death of the former is necessary therefore for the safety of the latter." These are hard words that hard men lived by in hard times, and they provide a lesson if we will only observe it. That lesson is that combat with edged weapons breeds and develops the deadliest, most resolute fighter the world has ever known.
The reason for this developed combat efficiency is simple. Every combat engagement with an edged weapon, be it knife, or sword, or whatever, is intensely personal, and to survive one must actually deliver death to the opponent with one's own hand and through the expenditure of one's own muscular effort. It takes true will and resolve to accomplish this, as well as a fearlessness and indifference to injury and death. These qualities were very highly developed in the men at arms in the days of true blade cultures. This warrior mindset, generated by the use of the blade itself, was coupled with intense training and remarkable physical conditioning. Quoting a passage from War Through the Ages that

describes a knight from the period of the Crusades is revealing today.

"As a physical specimen, the men at arms must have been incredibly tough, wiry, resistant to disease. The medieval lord in his castle tolerated filth and hardship which left weaklings small chance of survival; and the metabolism of the age is indicated by the fact that Europe imported spices to stomach dangerously tainted foods. That the knight was not usually a large man we know from suits of armor in modern museums. It may also be concluded that we had muscles of steel, since he wielded a lance and broadsword that would exhaust a heavier man of today. He was, in short, a sheer fighting animal bred by a relentless process of selection."
The death of the conquistador Francisco Pizzaro serves to further illustrate this point. Due to the execution of a rival, Diego de Almagro, Pizzaro was targeted for assassination.

The assailants decided to kill Pizzaro on Sunday, 26 June, 1541, as he walked home from church. Learning of the plan, Pizzaro did not attend mass that day and stayed home. The assailants, 10 in number, went instead to Pizzaro's residence to commit the murder. In the fight that followed, the old conquistador, fighting for his life in his own home at the age of 70, killed three of them with his sword before he himself was run through. Pizzaro, a product of a blade culture, was a dangerous, deadly, and resolute foe, more than a match on even terms with men half his age who sought to kill him.

The fact that Pizzaro killed three of his assassins before dying brings up another interesting point. These men-and there were uncounted thousands more like them-were products of blade cultures across the ages and across the geographical regions of the world. They were true killers of men in the purest sense. There are numerous accounts of individual feats of arms whereby a combatant would kill from three to ten or more opponents in a single deadly encounter with edged weapons. Paul Kirchner In his book The Deadliest Men, available from Paladin Press, cites the example of the noted Viking warrior/poet Egil Skallagrimsson. Egil was on a raid in Frisland, and in the ensuing battle became separated from his men and surrounded by the enemy. In fighting his way to safety, Skallagrimsson single-handedly killed 11 of them. In an ambush and battle with a group of Varmlanders on another occasion, Egil and his men killed 25 of them with Egil killing eight in one skirmish and eleven in another. Egil Skallagrimsson died of natural causes in the autumn of the year 990. He was 80 years old, having survived scores, perhaps even hundreds, of deadly encounters during loner than six decades of deadly combat.

Robert the Bruce was born 11 July 1274. From childhood, he was trained for war and mastered the weapons of the titled gentry. It was well he did, for the stormy and violent environment for the Scottish fight for independence from England generated particularly hard of conditions of combat and retribution that have spawned hatreds that endure to this day. In an era of skilled and adept fighting men on both sides, the exploits at arms of Robert the Bruce were such that he became a legend in his own time. One such instance involved an engagement in Robert's own earldom, Carrick, between Robert and about sixty of his followers, and the Macdowalls of Galloway. The Macdowalls had a force about 200 strong and were attempting to ford a steep-banked river under the cover of darkness, when they were discovered by Robert. According to Robert's 14th century biographer, John Barbour, Robert and then his followers mounted a successful defense of the river crossing. After the engagment, Robert's men found him sitting and resting. "They found lying in that place 14 slain by his hand" as well.

When you consider that throughout the ages men such as Pizzaro, Egil Skallagrimsson, Robert the Bruce, and countless others both known and unknown, participated in scores of individual battles and skirmishes in their lifetime, you begin to realize that many of these individuals killed hundreds of men in individual combat. The fact is lost today that this was not an unusual occurrence in the warrior societies that were the result of blade cultures throughout the world.

Firearms have changed the complexion of warfare. It is no longer necessary to be within arms reach of your opponent to kill him, and warfare has as a result become depersonalized to a very great extent. This has resulted in the near-disappearance of the driving emotion that perpetuated blood feuds that raged for generations and made some cultures such as the Vikings "battle glad" and "strife eager", if their chronicles are to be believed. "

Cabelo

Not only firearms. Read Timeline. It may be ficiton but it accurately shows that the longbow changed the course of warfare.

In capoeira, we only use straight bladed razors. All of the bladework tends to be using the blade as an extension of our hands and feet (by strapping razors to the feet). Some nasty lads have been known to lace their abadas (trousers) with razorblades so that circular kicks are more... fun.

Musashi

I'm sorry but possibly through language barrier you may have missed the point.

The firearm signalled the demise of blade arts,whether it was Samurai,Capoeira lads with razors in their feet or whatever.

If I can blam you from 25 yards your having a blade is a moot point.I still like the blade arts,though any straight razors I've had were too brittle to take much in the way of impact.

I've seen old bare knuckle boxing texts where the razor was used over the knuckles but an old timey large ass Bowie generally negated that if it was seen.
And as Samuel Colt said "God made all men and I made them all equal"

Cabelo

I apologise if my english hasn't quite managed to make my point clear. It has never been my strong suit. The point I was trying to make was twofold. I'll break it down, nice and simply like:

1) Firearms did not herald the end of blade fighting's supremacy on the battlefield; the invention, training in and relative availability of the longbow (capable of breaching full plate) made the average peasant with an hour of training a day a formidable opponent. This, coupled with an increase in the amount of civilians press ganged into the armies of their respective kings, meant that battlefields could be strewn with the corpses of knights bred for combat before they ever managed to reach the first line of archers.

2) I like pointing out an alternate kind of blade culture, one of the few to develop independently in a country where jungles were thick enough to shelter people from enemies with firearms. I'm sorry if you've deemed that irrelevant.

Also, my first language was english. I thoroughly apologise if I've forgotten somethings though.

Musashi

I'd say the bow,even used as it was during the Korean War,was a dying art once gunpowder took hold in massed armies.I don't doubt that in Jungle areas the bolo etc. were still efficient.

John F. Kennedy had an Ek fighting knife on his desk as a letter opener during his presidency.The makers motto was that a man could run out of bullets but a man with a good knife could always kill. This is as true today as it was back in the stone age.

I've seen demos where English longbowmen,like at Agincourt,could fire twelve times faster than Musketeers!And do as much damage.

Once repeating arms and automatic weapons took over though,blades and bows were the stuff of Rambo movies.A fine hobby but not an optimal combat choice any more.

I'm sorry if you've deemed that irrelevant.

I'm more sorry that you took that from my post! I love all styles and ranges of combat,hence my affinity for the living tradition of European blade styles and fencing.I'm open to any and all styles,blade or not,and I'm hoping we can meet and compare notes some day?

Talliesin

Musashi wrote:

Once repeating arms and automatic weapons took over though,blades and bows were the stuff of Rambo movies.A fine hobby but not an optimal combat choice any more.

They say a lot of the fighting in the caves in Afghanistan recently was with knives, due to the close quaters at which it took place.

Musashi

Even if that were true,who picks a knife over an autoloading M4?
A blade will kill anywhere but first pick has to go to automatic weapons,my first choice would be the FN Minimi tbh!

Dave Joyce

LOL @ 2 blade guys agrueing over the Queens English (or at least use of!)

Nice piece Musashi. However, and I know it might be nit picking, but nearly all military units are still issued with a fixed blade of some descripsion. Secondly automatics do jam, and as some of the military guys have said times have changed for them too what peace keeping duties etc, so they can't always deploy their primary weapon immediately in this circumstances. Lastly, a knife/sword weilding attacker can cover approx 20ft before someone can unholster, take off the safety and aim their small-arm. My prefered option would be an AR15 with a laser sight, but failing that a pump-action shotgun

Hey Talliesin, interesting you mentioned Afganistan. You're not a SEAL by any chance as they told some very interesting stories (of a very similar nature) when I attended the Sayoc Tactical week last year???!!!

Apparently jungle warfare during WW2 between the Filipinos and Japanese was supposed to have been very bloody and brutal with a lot of it involving hand to hand or should that be sword/knife to sword/knife. As far as I know Leon Giron doesn't even want to talk about it nowadays. So much for Windtalkers!!

Musashi

Hey Dave,

I'd say every soldier has a fixed blade of some sort,from the Ka Bar type used as shovel and prybar to the likes of the Fairbairn Sykes of Britain,the Applegate Fairbairn,or the Extrema Ratio blades of the Italian Special Forces

a knife/sword weilding attacker can cover approx 20ft before someone can unholster, take off the safety and aim their small-arm

Agreed, but I see this used often to see the blade as in some way more deadly than a gun.But the assumption being made here is that your opponnent has an unsheathed blade and is ready to go while the armed soldier/police officer or whoever has been daydreaming and not noticed.In an ambush type attack you probably can cover the distance and go to work before the other guy can draw and fire,even from a rough and ready pectoral index position.If he's spotted you getting ready and has similarly geared up the knifer is facing covering 20ft towards a guy with a pistol in condition one,not good odds for the knife guy any more as any overtly hostile move will draw fire.

Anyways, my only exposure to knife styles has been mainly internet research of old military texts and some photo sequences and video of a blade down edge in style which may have come from Pekiti Tersia? Could you tell us what a typical Sayoc class consists of and how ye train sparring and stuff?
What do you think of knife disarms? And I'm not counting the use of a Barong or Golok to actually sever the limb
Do ye travel any bit or give seminars on the knife and defense against it?
Just interested to see what else is going on around the country, and it looks like Sayoc like BJJ and the other more esoteric stuff is starting to be brought here by interested parties getting training groups together and asking instructors to come visit.

Dave Joyce

Hi Musashi sorry for not getting back earlier but I had some private classes yesterday and didn't get a chance to post. Now just to clear one thing up, I am not an instructor in either Sayoc Kali (although I have been allowed by Tuhon Tom Kier to teach certain aspects of the syllabus) or Atienza Kali, but we do have permission to have training groups in both arts which we train in separatley. There is a certain protocol involved in both arts which has to be observed and you can't just declare yourselves a training group. Likewise, being a training group has certain responsibilities, and just one of those is to bring instructors to train the group as well as attending seminars held nearby, and of course Sama Sama.

Beginning students in Sayoc Kali (this is just the blades portion of the system thats why its motto is "All blade, all of the time" but the system involves a lot more besides which comes under the umbrella of Sayoc Fighting Systems) usually start out in learning the 3 of 9 Template and all of the variations involved such as left hand, right lead left follow, vice versa and tapping. They also learn possibley Transitional Drill 1 which helps practisioners to transition from the system they practise to SK. SK is unlike a lot of systems as its offensive which is refered to as "feeder based" and the outset of training focuses on that aspect. Phase 2 moves to the receiver and emphasises striking while tapping etc and Phase 3 brings the two sides more into line. All of the above takes time to get down and is not accomplised in a short training period.

In Atienza Kali students begin with the long blade and learn isolations from as well as learning the first Evolution. They also learn the hand assistor which would be classed as a small blade such as a folder, learning again isolations from along with the first hand assistor Evolution. A lot of stratagies are also taught which would include striking,footwork and the Atienza fighter types which is the different types of fighter classifications the brothers have faced over the years. We do have a group which meets once a month to train and if you would be interested in coming along at some stage you could PM me at longfist@eircom.net Hope that gives you an idea of what we do, but both websites have instructor outline programmes that detail some of the training.