Help sought

sarachryan

At the risk of incurring wrath....I desperately need advice and apologise if you've had twenty similar requests already.
I am learning to drive, provisional licence and would prefer to keep walking than shell out for a poxy punto, focus or Golf. That said I'm not looking for a love affair. I'm interested in getting my hands on the most hassle free classic I can. Won't be putting too much pressure on it, needed for occasional trips but not for work etc. I'll wait til I have my full licence if needs be, so insurance issues not so much of an issue. Prepared to shell out the neccessary for the right one.
Basically I don't have the know how to get out there and part with cash yet and am mithered by the amount of info on the web.
Can anyone point me in the right direction here in Dublin? The more specific the better. Dealer or owner etc.

So far the MGB BT or BMW 2002 seem attractive options....although completely open to all suggestions.

Silvera

Hi sarachryan,

Welcome to the forum!

First question - Are you over 25 ?
If not, you won't get classic insurance (and may also have difficulty getting 'everyday' insurance on a classic).

Sorry to be the 'bearer of bad news' !

ds20prefecture

sarachryan wrote:

Basically I don't have the know how to get out there and part with cash yet and am mithered by the amount of info on the web.
Can anyone point me in the right direction here in Dublin? The more specific the better. Dealer or owner etc.

So far the MGB BT or BMW 2002 seem attractive options....although completely open to all suggestions.

Hi Sara - personally I would avoid dealers/traders. If you must, choose a specialist in a particular marque rather than a generic "get your classic here" trader.

Pick a marque/model, research it a bit, join a club, get to know people and buy a car from one of them. Get someone else in the club who's expert on the car to inspect it. The decending order of importance of issues is rust, mechanicals, body dents, interior.

The 2002 is a fine car - simple mechanically with a peppy and economical engine, nice-ish interior and elegant proportions. Like all cars their age they are prone to rust, but possibly less so than others. They are reasonable money and are well supported in terms of clubs/fellow owners here. I don't know about servicing specialists, but pretty much anyone could look after one of these for you, there's no surprises in there.

IMO, the MGB is a dreadful little car. Cramped, thirsty, slow, crude, gawky proportions, bad-to-evil handling and nasty inside. The midget is much nicer, but I'm not an MG fan. Don't let me dissuade you - they're popular for a reason, it's just that I can't see it

May I suggest a 2CV/Dyane/variant? they are comfortable, fun, quirky, very robust, highly enjoyable and a rock-solid investment, provided the work has been done when you buy it. Ditto the Fiat 500/600. In both cases rust is the biggest enemy.

Alternatively, the Citroën DS is unquestionably the greatest car ever made. They can be expensive to buy and run though and they might be a tad complex for you. If you have, say, €25,000 you can have an excellent rust free RHD model that will quickly become the love of your life. €15k and a bit of time will source you an excellent LHD car, and €10k you can find a good daily driver in need of a little work. Caveat Emptor below that.

If you can't like French, the Jaguar XJ is a lot of car for reasonable money. You really need expert help when buying one, but get a good one and you'll never need another car.

Be sure to buy a car over 30 years old to avail of the tax/insurance/nct benefits.

Hope this helps.

sarachryan

Thanks a million for all that.
Sorry now to sound dense or lazy or worse...
It appears that there isn't a short way of getting around this, I'll have to join a club etc before buying?

ds20prefecture

sarachryan wrote:

Thanks a million for all that.
Sorry now to sound dense or lazy or worse...
It appears that there isn't a short way of getting around this, I'll have to join a club etc before buying?

You don't have to - I just think that the safest way of buying a classic is from someone who is passionate about the cars and has an identitiy within a small community that they feel is worth protecting. i.e. not a generic dealer.

I don't know of a classic BMW specialist in Ireland, or indeed a classic MG specialist. The UK is much better served in this respect.

There's a short way to owning a classic, but it's generally a short way to lose a lot of money and end up with a heap. Believe me, I've been there

sarachryan

thanks again ds.
Any recommendations for a good club in Dublin? For any of the cars you mention above?
There's probably no chance of getting insured unless I have the full licence so I probably have time on my hands anyway.

sarachryan

p.s. Fiat 500??? Any thoughts?

Dades

I guess whether or not you need to join a club depends on the level of investment your making.

If you spending a fair bit of cash then make sure you are getting the advice you need. On the other hand if you're just buying a cheaper runner then you could probably get any mechanic to look it over for you.

Narrow your search down to a couple of classics and then do your reseach in earnest on these. Lurk on a few forums and you'll find most questions you have will been asked before. I bought a car from Canada without having seen it but I asked some Fiat enthusiasts to look through all the images and give me a checklist of things to ask.

And if DS is going to plug Citroens I'm going to plug Fiats
You could pick up a nice Fiat Dino Coupe for about 15K.
I can't see the Fiat 500 thing myself, though each to their own...

Or how about a Volvo P1800?

Let us know how you get on.
G'luck!

ds20prefecture

sarachryan wrote:

p.s. Fiat 500??? Any thoughts?

The Fiat 500 is one of the greatest car designs ever, IMO. Like the 2cv, it is motoring pared down to it's absolute essentials.

The car is less than 10 foot long, yet can provide comfortable transport for a family of 4. It has a rear mounted air cooled engine of almost 21bhp (compared with the slowest Polo which would have about 60). Top speed is a breathtaking 58mph so if you want to use it outside of the city you need a different car. It also has a gearbox without synchromesh, so you need to get familiar with double de-clutching. This can make it very tiring in traffic.

Overall, if you are looking for a classic to be your day-to-day car, you might find the 500 a bit compromised. You can buy them with Fiat 126 engines and gearboxes, which makes them much nicer to drive but takes away a little of their charm and value. Also, you might find the 500 Giardiniera (a 500 estate) a little more practical day-to-day.

Good ones are more expensive now than when they were new, even allowing for inflation. Expect to pay between 7 and 10k. There is local professional support in the form of Little Italy in Kildare (087 264 5178), and an active owners group - not sure if there's a 500 club in Ireland.

ds20prefecture

The Atheist wrote:

And if DS is going to plug Citroens I'm going to plug Fiats
You could pick up a nice Fiat Dino Coupe for about 15K.
I can't see the Fiat 500 thing myself, though each to their own...

A ferrari engine for day-to-day use? You're a braver man than I, Atheist. Why not plug your Spider? It's a much nicer car than the Dino.

The Volvo is a nice car.

ds20prefecture

sarachryan wrote:

Any recommendations for a good club in Dublin? For any of the cars you mention above?

The Jaguar is probably best served club-wise in Ireland. The rest use the UK clubs.

The Blessington Car club hold a meeting on the evening of the second monday of every month. They are a good club but not marque-specific so you'll get a load of conflicting advice on which marque is the best (just like this thread). It is worthwhile going so that you can have a look at various cars and hopefully decide on which would suit you best. I'd say there's a meeting next monday evening, if I'm going I'll post it up here and you can have a go in my DS if you want.

Your first step should be to decide on a make and model, then get obsessive about it for a while.

Dades

ds20prefecture wrote:

A ferrari engine for day-to-day use? You're a braver man than I, Atheist.

Heh - I'm in the process of convincing a mate to get one so I can get to drive it.

ds20prefecture wrote:

Why not plug your Spider? It's a much nicer car than the Dino.

Now we don't want them becoming common, do we?

sarachryan,
are you looking for something sporty or spacey? And do you have a budget?
You'll note there's no shortage of suggestions here anyways!

sarachryan

The Atheist wrote:

Heh - I'm in the process of convincing a mate to get one so I can get to drive it.

Now we don't want them becoming common, do we?

sarachryan,
are you looking for something sporty or spacey? And do you have a budget?
You'll note there's no shortage of suggestions here anyways!

Budget isn't really an massive issue, up to 10K is possible. I'm looking for something that doesn't need work done to it. That's one of the main considerations, I just don't have the know how to start a project piece.
Ideally I want a car that I can use once or twice a week and very occasionally for long haul from Dublin to Galway. Something easy to drive, small, reliable.
I've noticed the most gorgeous BMW 2002 around my way for the last while. I wonder though whether they would be very heavy to run.
Have been reliably informed to steer clear of Beetles and Morris Minors....??
Have recently being thinking about a mini?
Where to start.....

sarachryan

Jesus, just realised what an absolute bimbo I sound on this thread.
Sincere apologies.
Hopefully I can just pick one soon.

ds20prefecture

sarachryan wrote:

Jesus, just realised what an absolute bimbo I sound on this thread. Sincere apologies.

What are you talking about? You sound exactly like most people I know (and indeed myself) when they first take the plunge. At least you're asking for advice - I dove straight in like an idiot and was burned to the tune of €2,500!

If you're going to use the car for long journeys, I'd really recommend something big soft and brisk, like a Jaguar XJ , a Citroën CX or DS or a Rover p5b/p6. Beetle, Minor, 2CV, Mini, Fiat 500 are just too underpowered for regular long hauls. You need something you can overtake in, so the bigger the engine the better.

The 2002 is nice and swift, but I don't know whether they are all that comfortable. Maybe a BMW 3.0CS coupe might suit better. Bear in mind that tax and insurance are largely academic on classics, so your primary costs are servicing and to a lesser extent petrol.

v-deniso

You could do a lot worse than a...

1957 Mercedes-Benz @ €9950
C 180 Classic

or a

1969 Mercedes-Benz 280 @ €7,500
280

especially when it comes to reliability.

I would avoid the Volvo P1800 unlesss you have really good knowledge of that type car and restoration methods. The P1800 is all welded together, with a structural frame encased by inner and outer metal panels. Even carefully maintained cars get moisture trapped inside the steel “sandwich”, and so rust from the inside!

As a first attempt at a classic car I would go with an MG B roadster, BGT or Midget. The main reasons are they are cheap to start with, availability of parts is huge and there is a huge amount knowledge available through the MG Owners Club. Here are a few examples that are available within your budget.
MG BGT
or
MG BGT Black Bumper

If you want to join a club then no better one than the IVVCC. They are the main overall club for cars in Ireland. You can get membership information from the following address...
Membership

Hope this Helps...

ds20prefecture

v-deniso wrote:

If you want to join a club then no better one than the IVVCC. They are the main overall club for cars in Ireland.

Interesting. Are they including post war cars now? I also heard that all other clubs need to associate themselves (for a fee) to the IVVCC - any idea why?

v-deniso

Yep the IVVCC have always accepted cars that are over 25 years old!

The IVVCC is the organization that tries to pull all smaller clubs together and implement and organize international rallys within the Republic or Ireland. Also they are the only club here thats affiliated with the FIVA.

ds20prefecture

v-deniso wrote:

Yep the IVVCC have always accepted cars that are over 25 years old!

Really? I know a member with a post war Traction Avant - he went to one or two rallies, but said it was mostly old guys who sat in their bentleys and wouldn't talk to him, implying that his car was too young. This wasn't the first complaint of that type I had heard, so I didn't bother joining. Nice to see things have changed - are you a member? When's the next rally?

The IVVCC is the organization that tries to pull all smaller clubs together and implement and organize international rallys within the Republic or Ireland. Also they are the only club here thats affiliated with the FIVA.

Cool - so was that Bray rally I saw you at organised by the IVVCC?

Dades

Agree with DS in that the BMW 3.0CS might be a better car for you.

I also think they're much cooler than the 2002.
In the last month I've seen good condition models (including a 3.0S ) for sale from 9.5K up to 15K+ so you could pick one up in budget.

I still think a Volvo P1800 is worth considering. They may have had potential issues like v-deniso mentions but a reasonably well kept model should be tough as nails.

Also there's a couple on Classic Cars Ireland that might suit you...

Fiat 124 Coupe

Peugeot 504 Coupe

G'luck!

sarachryan

v-deniso wrote:

You could do a lot worse than a...

1957 Mercedes-Benz @ €9950
C 180 Classic

or a

1969 Mercedes-Benz 280 @ €7,500
280

especially when it comes to reliability.

I would avoid the Volvo P1800 unlesss you have really good knowledge of that type car and restoration methods. The P1800 is all welded together, with a structural frame encased by inner and outer metal panels. Even carefully maintained cars get moisture trapped inside the steel “sandwich”, and so rust from the inside!

As a first attempt at a classic car I would go with an MG B roadster, BGT or Midget. The main reasons are they are cheap to start with, availability of parts is huge and there is a huge amount knowledge available through the MG Owners Club. Here are a few examples that are available within your budget.
MG BGT
or
MG BGT Black Bumper

If you want to join a club then no better one than the IVVCC. They are the main overall club for cars in Ireland. You can get membership information from the following address...
Membership

Hope this Helps...

Those two mercs are seriously big cars, and the two MGs are gone.
I'm not going to be able to get Classic insurance as this will be my only car. Quoted E 1500 insurance for BMW 2002 because of engine capacity.
Long haul travel isn't so much an issue as I probably have given you to believe.
Can not see a Fiat 500 anywhere at all.
There's a BMW 2002 coupe, "restored" which is being advertised for 10 K.

Friends suggest that I buy a crappy small car, insure it and then get classic on the one that I really want. Seems ridiculous but may be more economical

sarachryan

p.s. does a Fiat 500 RHD exist? I should have said that I am limited to RHD

ds20prefecture

sarachryan wrote:

Friends suggest that I buy a crappy small car, insure it and then get classic on the one that I really want. Seems ridiculous but may be more economical

Check out this sticky on insuring a classic..

I agree with you about the merc(s), dreadful frumpy things
I've already made myself clear on the MGs - and I'll be terribly disappointed if you go for that

Strange advice from a man who has such exceptionally good taste in cars....

ds20prefecture

sarachryan wrote:

p.s. does a Fiat 500 RHD exist? I should have said that I am limited to RHD

Yes. They not quite as plentiful as LHD, but they do exist and LHD cars can be converted too.

May I ask why you're limiting yourself to RHD? I use LHD almost daily in Dublin without any problems whatsoever.

sarachryan

Just feel more comfortable driving a RHD, not too confident about inflicting myself in a LHD on the plain people of Ireland.

Any thoughts on this beauty?
Too much car for one woman.....

Merrion

IMO You should check out the Triumph Spitfire.
Nice looking, slightly under powered but a great deal of fun and very plentiful with good spare parts from the likes of Rimmer Bros(UK)

ds20prefecture

sarachryan wrote:

Too much car for one woman.....

Certainly not. Looks fantastic, very..... yellow.

Did BMW make a convertible in the 2002, or is this after market? If the latter be sure that the work is done well, as they often scrimp on rust protection for the modified panels.

If you're thinking of a convertible, be sure that you can source replacement hoods for your car, and find out the cost. You should budget to replace one every 7 to 10 years, depending on how lucky you are. Also check that the roof is well sealed when you buy it - take it to a pressure wash and turn the hose on it if needs be. The seller should have no problem with this if they're honest. Also make sure that the interior floor is absolutely dry and rust free under the carpets. Check that the car doesn't mist up on a dry day and there shouldn't be any smell in the cabin. Also check the receptacle where the roof is stored, as water tends to get trapped here.

v-deniso

DS,

I also have a 1948 MG TC, so will never hear a bad word said against MG cars...
although they did go down hill rapidly toward the end.

Dades

sarachryan wrote:

Just feel more comfortable driving a RHD, not too confident about inflicting myself in a LHD on the plain people of Ireland.

Don't sell yourself short. Getting used to driving LHD is surprisingly easy. I went lefty a few months back and prefer it now (I drive both a LHD and a RHD). Loads more choice in cars too.

Re the insurance, make sure you try First Ireland. They gave me a good deal when I was insuring a classic as an only car.

Lastly, that 2002 in the pic is very nice. And a definite ladies car...

ds20prefecture

v-deniso wrote:

DS,

I also have a 1948 MG TC, so will never hear a bad word said against MG cars...
although they did go down hill rapidly toward the end.

Only pulling your leg, v-deniso I know what you mean though. I get all defensive and hackley when people pick on the Citroën Ami 6 (for obvious reasons)

sarachryan

Ok Very yellow, you say.
Yes it is very yellow


Whilst not strictly a classic, how about this 1984 job as a starter

ds20prefecture

Beautiful.

Dades

sarachryan wrote:

Whilst not strictly a classic, how about this 1984 job as a starter

Nice indeed.

The older "Duetto" spiders don't have the black bumpers but are way pricier.
And of course with 1984 you'll still be paying your road tax (€539 on a 2L) and VRT if it comes from overseas.

But definitely beats a Punto or a Micra any day of the week.