Peugeot and Citroen

BrianD3

I'd just like to hear some opinions on the current Peugeot and Citroen ranges. I have to say I hate the styling of the facelifted C5 and the facelifted 307. Neither car was a beauty to start with but the facelifts have made things even worse. Relaibility on both of these is not the best plus the 307 doesn't have the great dynamics of Pugs of old.

The C4 and 407 are a lot better and look a lot better too. But there's something not quite "right" about the styling of the 407.

206/C2/C3 - decent but the 206 is getting on a bit now

607 - pointless and deservedly ignored. Bad depreciation.

Big new C6 - looks stunning and seems interesting. But it will probably also be ignored and depreciate badly

mike65

I agree about the medium/large saloons, as for the flagships the 607 is horrid the C6 will die the death dispite its groovy design (pity about the stubby nose though) no big Cit has ever sold well outside France. Neither marque has been at the races for a few years now. The baby hatches will always sell on price but its hard to get excited about either range.

Mike.

alias no.9

BrianD3 wrote:

But there's something not quite "right" about the styling of the 407.

That will be the extremely long front overhang, it just doesn't work.

RedorDead

alias no.9 wrote:

That will be the extremely long front overhang, it just doesn't work.

The overhang looks pretty damn nice on the new Coupe.

alias no.9

RedorDead wrote:

The overhang looks pretty damn nice on the new Coupe.

if the front wheels were positioned further forward with the same side profile, it would probably work. On the coupe, the vents on the side of the bumper masks the size of it somewhat.

bazz26

Plus the standard 16 inch wheels look tiny on the 407 due to the huge overhang on the wheel arches. I'd say a bit of damage would be on the cards when parking it, trying to judge where the front starts or ends.

Definately think the front wheel base should have been moved more towards the front bumper to make it more proportional to to the rest of the car.

As for French cars in general, they come up with great ideas but I just don't trust their build quality or electrics.

Probably the best thing Peug/Citroen have a the moment is their HDi diesel engines which are very good. 110bhp from a 1.6 is not bad plus it have plenty of torque for such a small capacity diesel engine.

I read somewhere that Peug is pulling the plug on the 607 in Ireland and the UK due to poor sales. Just not worth engineering it in RHD anymore.

I see the C6 going the same way as the Vel Satis, 607, Maxima QX, Camry and Omega.

lili

i already liked a lot the 406 coupé, but i must admit that the 407 coupé is even better.
wonderful car.

iregk

I have to say I drive a 306 and for me the gti kit was the last sporty looking pug to be made. Since then they have gone fat, bulky and just boring looking. the 407 could be so much nicer if it were for that overhand which is about 8" too long plus as someone said, give it bigger wheels!

That all said nothign really does it for me in the Citreon/Pugeot range. The HDI engine is a class piece of kit but if anything goes wrong they are seriously expensive to fix and believe me, they are very very easy to break! Fuel pump being the worst offender in them.

The problem with european cars, with teh exception of VW, is that they still have woeful build quality. They look great and preform great for about 30k miles then crumble... alpha, cit, pug, reno, merc, bmw all the same. My 306 I have to admit has turned me off European cars now for life. Big worrying thing is now Toyota Avansis is made by Renault as I believe are the Primera!!!! Japanese cars getting European build quality, they are selling out on the one thing we love them for.

prospect

iregk wrote:

The problem with european cars, with teh exception of VW, is that they still have woeful build quality.

LOL
You're taking the p1ss, right!

Stephen

I have to say I like the look of the 307cc, but the 406 coupé is still a car I would like to have some day. I wouldn't be surprised at Nissan Primeras being built by Renault, since they... you know... own Nissan. Didn't know Renault had anything to do with Toyota though.

bazz26

iregk wrote:

Big worrying thing is now Toyota Avansis is made by Renault as I believe are the Primera!!!! Japanese cars getting European build quality, they are selling out on the one thing we love them for.

Renault have a major share in Nissan alright but they don't have any involvement in Toyota.

Peug/Citroen and Toyota co produce the same small city car C1/107/Aygo alright and all three are made in the same factory in the Czech Republic.

BrianD3

bazz26 wrote:

As for French cars in general, they come up with great ideas but I just don't trust their build quality or electrics.

TBH I don't think they are nearly as bad as people think in terms of electrical reliability. One reason why they have this rep is that low/mid range models are usually a lot better equipped than many other cars. So there is simply more to go wrong. Eg you won't hear of too many electric window failures on Golf Mk3s. The fact that the majority of them simply don't have electric windows is obviously a factor in this rather than it being simply due to "german reliability".

My family have run numerous renaults in the past 15-20 years and have had very few problems, electrical or otherwise.

As for great ideas, I think they've lost the plot in recent years. Eg automatic handbrakes on the Laguna and Vel Satis. Why? Gives no benefit that I can see and if it goes wrong it may have safety implications.

OTOH in the past they have come up with loads of great ideas. One that I can think of straightaway is remote controls for the stereo on the steering column which renault started fitting in 1983. Such a simple, cheap thing to fit but with huge safety benefits. It took most other manufacturers a decade or two to cop on to this great idea.

bazz26

Renault and Nissan are now starting to share platforms and technology. Renault bought into Nissan when the current Primera design was at an advanced stage so they only had an influence on the look of the car. The first of the real sharing began with the Micra which is now being used as the basis of the new Clio which will share engines, platform and gear boxes with the Micra. The next one up is the new Almera replacement which will be a Megane underneath. After that the next Laguna and Primera will be the same car under different designed bodies.

iregk

Prospect not taking the piss at all. Bazz, maybe I am mistaken with the Renault - Toyota connection but I remember reading auto express saying a european marque is now building the avensis. For some reason Renault sprang to mind, possibly because of the Nissan connection. But they are deff built by a Euro manufacturer now.

Good indication of the difference. A cousin of mine who works for nissan was telling me, the Almera for the past couple of years has been the most reliable car in Ireland and England (the survey/poll covers both countries). That is still 100% made in Japan by Nissan. Before this the Primera had the honour while it was made in Japan. Then Renault got involved and now as he tells me the Primera is one of the most unreliable cars on the road. Everyone in his garage hates them! Sadly the next edition of the Almera is also due to be done by Renault.

Just thinking of the Toyota thing now it was actually Pug/Cit that do the avensis. After the Pug/Cit/Toy engine research think tank got together they have gone further into the build partnership. Sorry my mistake for throwing Renault in there.

alias no.9

iregk wrote:

Prospect not taking the piss at all. Bazz, maybe I am mistaken with the Renault - Toyota connection but I remember reading auto express saying a european marque is now building the avensis. For some reason Renault sprang to mind, possibly because of the Nissan connection. But they are deff built by a Euro manufacturer now.

Built by a european manufacturer or built in europe by toyota? They do after all have plants in the UK and Belguim and possibly elsewhere in europe.

iregk wrote:

Good indication of the difference. A cousin of mine who works for nissan was telling me, the Almera for the past couple of years has been the most reliable car in Ireland and England (the survey/poll covers both countries). That is still 100% made in Japan by Nissan. Before this the Primera had the honour while it was made in Japan. Then Renault got involved and now as he tells me the Primera is one of the most unreliable cars on the road. Everyone in his garage hates them! Sadly the next edition of the Almera is also due to be done by Renault.

European Primera models were built in sunderland from day 1 as were the final generation of bluebirds before that. The 1993 to 2002 model micra was also built there and is the most indestructable small car you can get. Granted early versions of the current model suffered somewhat from poor build but that's been sorted. Overall, Nissan's plant in sunderland was rated the most productive car manufacturing plant in europe a few years ago, it may still be, and it was also rated as having the best quality control of any car plant in europe.

iregk wrote:

Just thinking of the Toyota thing now it was actually Pug/Cit that do the avensis. After the Pug/Cit/Toy engine research think tank got together they have gone further into the build partnership. Sorry my mistake for throwing Renault in there.

They build the 107/C1/Aygo together in eastern europe. Without platform and technology sharing, there is no cost saving to be achieved by building models side by side and the avensis is not built on the same platform as the C5/407.

the evil belly

the almera's made in sunderland, since they introduced the latest model.

unkel

mike65 wrote:

no big Cit has ever sold well outside France

Or any other big French car in recent times for that matter. Reason: most were overpriced, not great cars and not reliable. No chance they could compete with the German big saloons. I remember the Peugeot 604 depreciating about 90-95% in 4 years :eek:

BrianD3 wrote:

remote controls for the stereo on the steering column which renault started fitting in 1983

Yeah I remember that vaguely. Was that on a version of the R9 or R11 that had loads and loads of electrics? TXE or something?

RedorDead

BrianD3 wrote:

TBH I don't think they are nearly as bad as people think in terms of electrical reliability. One reason why they have this rep is that low/mid range models are usually a lot better equipped than many other cars. So there is simply more to go wrong. Eg you won't hear of too many electric window failures on Golf Mk3s. The fact that the majority of them simply don't have electric windows is obviously a factor in this rather than it being simply due to "german reliability".

My family have run numerous renaults in the past 15-20 years and have had very few problems, electrical or otherwise.

As for great ideas, I think they've lost the plot in recent years. Eg automatic handbrakes on the Laguna and Vel Satis. Why? Gives no benefit that I can see and if it goes wrong it may have safety implications.

OTOH in the past they have come up with loads of great ideas. One that I can think of straightaway is remote controls for the stereo on the steering column which renault started fitting in 1983. Such a simple, cheap thing to fit but with huge safety benefits. It took most other manufacturers a decade or two to cop on to this great idea.

Peugeot are moving in the right direction anyways. If memory serves me right they were in the bottom three of this warranty direct survey last year.

iregk

RedorDead wrote:

Peugeot are moving in the right direction anyways. If memory serves me right they were in the bottom three of this warranty direct survey last year.

Love it. What ever way you take that its pretty much compliment and pi$$ take all rolled into one.

bazz26

iregk wrote:

Prospect not taking the piss at all. Bazz, maybe I am mistaken with the Renault - Toyota connection but I remember reading auto express saying a european marque is now building the avensis. For some reason Renault sprang to mind, possibly because of the Nissan connection. But they are deff built by a Euro manufacturer now.

Good indication of the difference. A cousin of mine who works for nissan was telling me, the Almera for the past couple of years has been the most reliable car in Ireland and England (the survey/poll covers both countries). That is still 100% made in Japan by Nissan. Before this the Primera had the honour while it was made in Japan. Then Renault got involved and now as he tells me the Primera is one of the most unreliable cars on the road. Everyone in his garage hates them! Sadly the next edition of the Almera is also due to be done by Renault.

Just thinking of the Toyota thing now it was actually Pug/Cit that do the avensis. After the Pug/Cit/Toy engine research think tank got together they have gone further into the build partnership. Sorry my mistake for throwing Renault in there.

Just to clarify. Toyota build the Avensis in Derby, UK since 1997 alongside the Corolla hatchback and Yaris hatchback. This is Toyota's own factory, they also have one in France, the Czech Republic and Turkey. The Avensis doesn't have any engines from Peug or Citroen. It uses Toyota's own developed VVTi petrol engines and D4-D diesel engines.

The connection Peug/Citroen have with Toyota is that they all build the same city car in the Czech Republic. The Toyota Aygo, Peug 107 and Citroen C1 are all built in the same factory and share most parts to keep costs down.

The only other connection was back in 1999 when Toyota bought the old 1.9 diesel engine off Peugoet and fitted it in the Corolla until 2002. Toyota then developed its own D4-D diesel engine.