[PR] New train for Cork-Dublin route delivered

Victor

http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/general_news.asp?action=view&news_id=142

New train for Cork-Dublin route delivered - beginning of transformation of Intercity fleet by Press Office

The beginning of the transformation of Iarnród Éireann’s Intercity fleet began today (July 28th) with the delivery of the first train of a €117 million 67 carriage order from CAF of Spain.

The eight-carriage train was unloaded from the MV Flinterspirit at Dublin Port this morning, to commence the commissioning and testing process before entering service from this winter.

When all 67 carriages have entered service, in Autumn 2006, Iarnród Éireann will commence an hourly service each way between Cork and Dublin exclusively using this fleet, doubling the frequency of trains on the route and increasing route passenger capacity by over 80%.

The order marks the beginning of a three-year process that will see Iarnród Éireann’s Intercity fleet transformed from being the oldest in Western Europe to one of the most modern, with 223 carriages in total on order at a cost of €460 million.

Iarnród Éireann’s fleet renewal programme is funded by the Irish Government under the National Development Plan 2000-2006.

Built to the highest standards of quality, comfort and customer facilities, the CAF carriages will be formed into 8-carriage trains, comprising 5 standard class vehicles, a café-style dining carriage, first class and control vehicle (for push-pull driving, conductor and parcels). There will be seating for 422 passengers on-board, and the trains will have improved accessibility to mobility-impaired customers.

Features include:

- Push-pull operation to reduce turnaround time and allow more efficient operation, and improved punctuality
- Streamlined new design, featuring curved front and new livery
- Audio and text display passenger information systems on-board
- Electronic route maps
- Fully compliant with international standards for mobility-impaired and sensory-impaired customers
- Highest standards of comfort and customer facilities ever in Ireland
- Additional features in 1st class, including adjustable seating, in-seat radio and music, reading light, table lamps

CAF were previously successful in winning the Iarnród Éireann contract to build 80 new railcars for commuter and longer distance services in the Greater Dublin area which entered service during 2003 and 2004, delivering a huge boost to commuter capacity, and delivering record reliability and punctuality.

The new trains are the foundation of Iarnród Éireann’s Intercity timetable strategy for the future, designed to increase frequency, journey speed and customer service across the network.

Further train orders placed are:

- An €80 million order from CAF for a further 36 new railcars, currently under delivery. These will allow further expansion of commuter services, as well as the expansion of Sligo route services from 3 each way per day to 5 each way per day by the end of this year, including a total modernisation of the Sligo fleet

- A €262 million order for 120 Intercity railcars from Mitsui of Japan, with Tokyu Car of Japan and Rotem of Korea. To enter service during 2007 and 2008, these will serve routes from Dublin to Mayo, Galway, Limerick, Kerry and Waterford, delivering major comfort, quality, and frequency benefits across the network

With the hourly Cork-Dublin service beginning in Autumn 2006, further train orders will enable Iarnród Éireann to offer the following envisaged frequencies by 2008 across the network:

ROUTE
FREQUENCY

Dublin – Cork
Hourly all day

Dublin – Limerick
Hourly – mix of direct and shuttle services from Cork service

Dublin – Galway
Hourly peak, every two hours off-peak

Dublin – Waterford
Every two hours all day

Dublin – Sligo
Every two hours all day

Dublin – Westport
Existing through services PLUS additional shuttle services Athlone-Westport, connect to Galway service

Dublin – Tralee
Existing through services PLUS shuttle service every two hours Mallow-Tralee connecting with Cork service

Dublin-Rosslare
Existing service + extra commuter services (Gorey / Arklow)

Branch lines
Additional services

image

mar|<

any other pictures? thats the only one i could find, but im sure thats not the only one the photographer took, is there not one of the carriages somewhere

fiachs

only 5 passenger cars? isn't that smaller then the current intercity trains?

BuffyBot

Saw it today in Inchicore works - looks pretty nice. When it's been painted into the new IE livery I suspect it will be great.

GreenHell

Ya but how fast will it be, I alway thought 3 hours was overkill to get from Cork to Dublin especially when you look at the rail transport in other European countries.

MarkoP11

BuffyBot wrote:

Saw it today in Inchicore works - looks pretty nice. When it's been painted into the new IE livery I suspect it will be great.

It is already in the new livery :eek: , there is a plastic film over the paintwork currently and the logos haven't been applied

8 coaches arrived yesterday, one full train,

Control Car + First(44) + Diner(28) + 5 Standards(69) 417 seats (not 422 as IE quote)

Current Cork set is Van + First(42) + Diner(30) + 5/6 Standards(72) so its little difference in capacity, but it will be hourly which will double the number of seats per day

The control car is something to see it really looks angry almost snake like


And despite what Barry Kenny will say the new coaches will lead to zero journey time reduction, the old coaches (MK3) are just as capable

loyatemu

Audio and text display passenger information systems on-board

IE are always going on about this but on existing trains they are invariably either turned off, or displaying wildly inaccurate information.

Hooray! our new trains have a system that doesn't work - whoop de doo!

MarkoP11

loyatemu wrote:

Audio and text display passenger information systems on-board

IE are always going on about this but on existing trains they are invariably either turned off, or displaying wildly inaccurate information.

Hooray! our new trains have a system that doesn't work - whoop de doo!

Its a grey area but looks like a legal requirement to have it installed, so IE going on about it as something they went out of there way to install is just plain misleading

John R

MarkoP11 wrote:

It is already in the new livery :eek: , there is a plastic film over the paintwork currently and the logos haven't been applied

8 coaches arrived yesterday, one full train,

Control Car + First(44) + Diner(28) + 5 Standards(69) 417 seats (not 422 as IE quote)

Current Cork set is Van + First(42) + Diner(30) + 5/6 Standards(72) so its little difference in capacity, but it will be hourly which will double the number of seats per day

Most of the Mk3 rakes have 6 standard coaches and the non city gold ones also have the extra standard seating in the composite coach so there will be a significant reduction in train capacity.

MarkoP11 wrote:

And despite what Barry Kenny will say the new coaches will lead to zero journey time reduction, the old coaches (MK3) are just as capable

The quick way to reduced journey time is by reducing stops.

IMO the Dublin-Cork hourlys should have 2/3 set stops only with relief stopping services at each end of the line to serve the smaller intermediate stations.
Having a uniform journey time all day would be of great benefit to passengers and for operational efficiency.

With 2 intermediate stops a journey time of sub 2h40 or 2h30 if Limerick Junction is passed would be achieveable.


My preference would be for all Dublin-Cork services to stop at Thurles and Mallow only. To serve the intermediate stations and Limerick would be an hourly semi-fast Dublin-Limerick service with stops at Kildare, Portlaoise, Thurles, Limerick Junction and alternate trains stopping at a mix of Newbridge, Portarlington, Ballybrophy and Templemore. This train would be timetabled to depart Thurles 5-10 mns ahead of the Cork train giving a quick connection to Cork from the intermediate stations. For the return journey it would be scheduled into Thurles 5mns after the Cork-Dublin train. The only slight downside of this would be a relatively slow Limerick-Dublin journey at approx 2h35 but I believe that is offset by having an hourly direct service between the two cities.

For the southern half an Hourly Cork-Limerick Jct or a 2 Hourly Cork-Limerick Jct and 2hourly Tralee-Limerick Jct to connect into both directions of the Dublin-Limerick train. Even though 3 trains would be arriving, changing direction and departing from Lim Jct within the space of 10 minutes, with only a minor alteration to the trackwork there would be just one conflicting movement.

That could also be run every 2 hours with the alternate Limerick-Dublin services bypassing Limerick Junction and no southbound connection from Limerick.

MarkoP11

John R wrote:

Most of the Mk3 rakes have 6 standard coaches and the non city gold ones also have the extra standard seating in the composite coach so there will be a significant reduction in train capacity.

Loss of 80 seats a train vs having 6 extra trains, 2 extra trains make up the difference with seats spare the 4 beyond that are pure capacity, not forgetting each train will now have a full first class

Currently 9 trains a day direct Cork Dublin first 5:15 last 19:30 from next year there will be at least 15 trains a day possibly more if a later train is running from Cork, there is of course the MK2d set which has significantly fewer seats on the Cork run

IE have the option to extend the trains to 6 standard class coaches if needs be, if the timetable is pushed they would only need 6 sets in service which means they could move to 6 coaches without further outlay

Out of Dublin there is currently the 10:55 then 13:00 then 15:20 more than 2 hours between trains thats crazy and the 13:00 and 15:20 are packed even on a weekday

John R wrote:

With 2 intermediate stops a journey time of sub 2h40 or 2h30 if Limerick Junction is passed would be achieveable.

2:36 down 2:33 up with 2 stops agains a target of 2:15 set 20 years ago progress I think not

dowlingm

MarkoP11

where are the major bottlenecks on the Dublin-Cork line that could make 2-15 achievable?

MarkoP11

dowlingm wrote:

MarkoP11

where are the major bottlenecks on the Dublin-Cork line that could make 2-15 achievable?

Increase speed through Heuston approaches particulary when arriving in from Kildare direction
100mph Inchicore Curragh up from 90
Curragh curves have already seen an increase from 70, (you would be terrified how fast you can go around them the limit is far to low its a comfort issue not safety)
100mph Kildare Cherryville up from 90
60mph Through Portarlington up from 30 (was 60 till 1994)
100mph Portarlington Mallow
requires 70mph limit through Ballybrophy and Lisduff to be removed
Rebuild and resignal Limerick Junction to increase through speed

South of Mallow its twisty but the key is to concentrate on shifting the lower limits upwards

Two upgrades are key, Portarlington 30 to 60mph will make a huge difference since it is between two fast sections, same goes for Limerick Junction. Portarlington is the real key and it appears there is some kind of project planned. Everything else is just basic track maintence

In the late 50's a non stop test train of AEC railcars made it in 2:30, the current non stop time is a dismal 2:33, 2:27 was the best a few years back

mar|<

on the CAF site there are pictures and specs of the commuter trains, the NI trains and a tilting train which clearly isnt it in the intercity projects section. the only other train there is a carraige designed in 1997 i think it said, are these the new iarnrod eireann trains for intercity routes? i cannot tell because there is only a picture of the carraige and not the locomotive(which was shown on iarnrod eireann's wevbsite)

also, are these trains supposed to run a lot smoother than the current ones?

MarkoP11

mar|< wrote:

also, are these trains supposed to run a lot smoother than the current ones?

Nope more like the other way around, the current coaches are not perfect but they tend to cope with our suspect track. That said ride comfort is a personal thing its hard to measure and unless you travel often you won't notice, but if its bad you will know

Anyone who travels by enterprise knows new doesn't imply improved, the ride on those is so bad the builders have been dragged to Dublin and have failed to fix the issue on 2 occassions

SeanW

And on the CAF 2900s the ride from Dublin-Connolly to Longford resembles a rollercoaster. My concern would be that the ride on the CDEs is going to suck eggs unless the suspension on it is a radical departure from the 2900s.

strassenwolf

Irish Rail wrote:

The new trains are the foundation of Iarnród Éireann’s Intercity timetable strategy for the future, designed to increase frequency, journey speed and customer service across the network

And fair play to IE. It's going to be fantastic having all those hourly/two-hourly services and no really big gaps in the timetable.

MarkoP11 wrote:

The control car is something to see it really looks angry almost snake like

Absolutely agree. Fantastic looking machine.


The clever person who is fitting all those intercity trains into and out of Heuston, along with suburban trains, deserves a medal. I know that they are/will be adding extra tracks out to suburban stations - but I don't think it has happened yet (I'm to/from Connolly). When it does, it'll be great.

Victor

Some images here http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/ontrack.asp look at the covers (4MB PDF file)

I dated the hot chick on page 4 & 14. :D:D:D

MarkoP11 wrote:

In the late 50's a non stop test train of AEC railcars made it in 2:30, the current non stop time is a dismal 2:33, 2:27 was the best a few years back

In the 1993 era the Sunday evening express Cork-Dublin was 2:20.

Victor

Same image is here http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/general_news.asp?action=view&news_id=112

http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/general_news.asp?action=view&news_id=57

http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/general_news.asp?action=view&news_id=46

Previous thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=222303

http://www.irishrail.ie/images/upload/news/57.pdf

MarkoP11

Victor wrote:

In the 1993 era the Sunday evening express Cork-Dublin was 2:20.

And that was with a 90mph limit, but thats non stop right ?

The target set in 1985 was 2:15 with two stops that never happened. The current vision is for 2:10. Thats a 75+mph average

Back in the really good days (1997) Thurles Dublin non stop was doable in under 65 minutes, Thurles passengers still talk of it. I made it in 64 and its 86.44 miles more or less half distance to Cork wasn't in the timetable as such but in practice it was flat out full power the whole way apart from Portarlington, despite all the upgrades I have never seen anything even close to that performance, its hard to imagine flying through Clondalkin at 80mph today. That was Cork Dublin in 2:39 with 4 stops but we sat for 11 minutes in Limerick Junction and a further 5 in Thurles

Clearly IE need to get back in gear going back to the 1994 times is not enough they should be beatable by a wide margin

So if IE are reading can we do a non stop Dublin Cork in 2:10 on the press run of the new coaches ? Can we break the Irish rail speed record ? The time has come to present a show visable proof the money is making a difference

Victor

MarkoP11 wrote:

but thats non stop right ?

I think so, not certain. there were 2 Sunday evening trains at the time. One certainly had much fewer stop than the other.

It certainly had a "bat out of heel" feel to it and was the last train from the South / West on Sundays.

SeanW

Will the Kildare quad tracking project help IC speeds any?

Victor

Yes. If an express needs to keep X time / distance behind a local for safety reasons, then the express effectively has to slow to the speed of the local.

Commuter trains will average much lower speeds, so giving the InterCitys there own track will mean they can use the full geometric / safety / comfort speed.

monument

Today’s Irish Times talked about the new "high-speed" trains, what speeds can these new trains get to?

Would I be safe to presume it’s under the standard thinking of ‘high-speed’ as in Wikipedia… “High-speed rail is public transport by rail at a speeds over 200 km/h (125 mi/h)”? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_speed_trains

SeanW

Technically, the coaches are high-speed in that they can operate at a maximum line speed of 200 kilometres per hour.

Unfortunately the 201 class of locomotive which will be push/pulling these sets top out at 100 MPH and the tracks are not built to do anything over that safely. So it'll be a while yet before we can really have "high speed rail"

Thomond Pk

an 071 would look no more ridiculous than a 201 at the end of the new coaches and can go faster despite being designed in 1956

murphaph

Thomond Pk wrote:

an 071 would look no more ridiculous than a 201 at the end of the new coaches and can go faster despite being designed in 1956

071's accelerate faster. They don't go faster, in fact I think they are limited to 90mph. I am pretty underwhelmed by all of this. New coaches, no better than the mkIIIs they are replacing. Would have been better to spend the cash on increasing the line speed to 125mph and respray the mkIIIs in this livery.

monument

So, this is all a big joke?

MarkoP11

monument wrote:

So, this is all a big joke?

Don't believe what you read from IE

murphaph is quite correct, the fastest journey times on the network date from the 1993-1995 era before the 201 class arrived. The current timetable is padded like crazy. In 1996/7 there where some stunning perfromances from the 201 class but the track could'nt take the punishment

And for the record a 071 will go faster than 90mph, much much faster 100mph fairly common. Offical tests at 100mph where done in May/June 1984. a rumoured 117mph in 1976, driver got sacked afterwards, they have gone even faster

Money needs to go into the track to bring speeds up. There is talk of a relay program starting 2006. We do need these coaches since the demand far outstrips capacity and the older coaches need to be scrapped before they fall apart

If anyone claims they will bring a any improvement in journey time between Dublin and Cork they are lying

dowlingm

The CDEs are all push-pull (so no need to change loco ends) which is an improvement over the Mk3 of which only some sets are PP and are most often on the Waterford line I understand.

That said I wouldn't mind seeing all the existing Mk3 go PP to supplement the CDE stock instead of being scrapped as is the current plan.

John R

dowlingm wrote:

The CDEs are all push-pull (so no need to change loco ends) which is an improvement over the Mk3 of which only some sets are PP and are most often on the Waterford line I understand.

That said I wouldn't mind seeing all the existing Mk3 go PP to supplement the CDE stock instead of being scrapped as is the current plan.

Scrapping them is a disgusting waste, they are only just at half-life stage.

Push-pull would be very easy to do, the existing generator vans could be altered to accomodate a cab or iE could buy up the Mk3 driving trailers built in the early 90s from the UK that were recently withdrawn from Virgin West Coast.


The purchase of new coaches was IMO totally unnecessary, there are dozens of rakes of ex-Virgin Mk3s available in the UK, with a complete refurbishment of them and IE's current fleet they could have had a top class fleet big enough for the entire network for far less than the cost of this new order.

MarkoP11

John R wrote:

Scrapping them is a disgusting waste, they are only just at half-life stage.

Push-pull would be very easy to do, the existing generator vans could be altered to accomodate a cab

Nope can't do that coach body was never designed for that and its pre stressed so you can't chop bits out. IE looked into it with the Cu Na Mara set and gave up

John R wrote:

or iE could buy up the Mk3 driving trailers built in the early 90s from the UK that were recently withdrawn from Virgin West Coast.

That was plan B back in 1999 when not one single company responded to the first tender for new coaches

Issues
UK MK3's are older than ours
Need to reguage which is expensive
Possible need for a total electrical refit to match IE's different but vastly superior electical system
UK DVT cab not compatible
Need to fit generator in DVT
Don't meet modern accessibility requirements critical point as they are viewed as 'new'
Have manual slam doors, sure they have central locking but its a accessibility issue and central locking is only a stop gap solution
Oh and the EU almost certainly won't pay for second hand kit it hard enough to get them to pay for anything that moves as it stands

Anglia/One has taken a heap and word is the rest could be off to Bosnia, but there are a lot of DVT's free and they are the same age as the Irish fleet

One coach (6402) was obtained ex GNER a few years back and it is rumoured to have cost almost as much as a new coach to rebuild to match the fleet, in that context buying new makes sense, plus new coaches have a 35 year life not 15 any second hand ones would have

The solution going forward is something like this

A
Get CAF to build another 15 Control cars refit the current MK3 fleet to match the CDE sets, use the MK3 generator vans on the enterprise service to get round the issues there

B
Buy 15 redundant class 82 DVTs from the UK. Order 15 201 class control consoles from GM, take the bogies and generators off 15 MK3 generator vans and stick them in the DVTs.

Victor

MarkoP11 wrote:

Control Car + First(44) + Diner(28) + 5 Standards(69) 417 seats (not 422 as IE quote)

Wheelchair "seats" maybe?

MarkoP11 wrote:

...murphaph is quite correct, the fastest journey times on the network date from the 1993-1995 era before the 201 class arrived. The current timetable is padded like crazy. In 1996/7 there where some stunning perfromances from the 201 class but the track could'nt take the punishment
...
Money needs to go into the track to bring speeds up. There is talk of a relay program starting 2006. ...

Was the 1996/97 problem a wobble issue (some individual sections just aren't straight), CWR, fixings, sleepers, trackbed? What type of relay program?

For making the existing Mk3 sets push-pull, why not order a batch of new ones control cab carriages along the lines of the ones used on Dublin-Drogheda to be added to the existing sets.

They could be rotated though the existing sets to prolong the life of the carriages.

Zaph0d

Why is the Portarlington section so slow?

John R

Victor wrote:

Was the 1996/97 problem a wobble issue (some individual sections just aren't straight), CWR, fixings, sleepers, trackbed? What type of relay program?

Rail, sleepers and ballast get changed in one go, the old sections then can be re-used on lower speed lines if there is the need for it.

Much of the track on the Dublin-Cork line is now quite old, most of the secondary lines now have much better condition trackwork thanks to the recent renewals, the Cork line was relaid in sections from the mid 70's so much of it is due for replacement again.

The problems with the 201s are numerous and ongoing, GM really did not have much experience with high speed running, their niche was for heavy freight locos, the 071's were not designed for high speed passenger at all, it was just fortunate for CIE that they were such excellent locos that they were able to handle it so well. Nobody was more shocked than the GM engineers when they found out that these locos were successfully operating as such.

Unfortunately they didn't strike gold twice and the 201's, even though a supposedly new and improved product never came close to matching the 071s for reliability.

Victor wrote:

For making the existing Mk3 sets push-pull, why not order a batch of new ones control cab carriages along the lines of the ones used on Dublin-Drogheda to be added to the existing sets.

They could be rotated though the existing sets to prolong the life of the carriages.

It is not a case of looking for solutions to keep them going for a bit longer, they are good for another 15 years easily. The UK DVTs are available or they could simply have added a batch of compatible driving trailers to the current new order to make all the Mk3 sets push-pull. It is that IE do not want to keep them, they have decided to switch to multiple units for everything except Cork.

Victor

John R wrote:

Much of the track on the Dublin-Cork line is now quite old, most of the secondary lines now have much better condition trackwork thanks to the recent renewals, the Cork line was relaid in sections from the mid 70's so much of it is due for replacement again.

The clickity clack existed up to about 1990. The sleepers at Limerick Junction are stamped 1984 & 1985.

murphaph

John R wrote:

Unfortunately they didn't strike gold twice and the 201's, even though a supposedly new and improved product never came close to matching the 071s for reliability.

Due in no small part to the fact that IE completely ignored GM's advice on running HEP to supply electricity to the Enterprise coaches. The 071's never had to supply the electricity for the coaches they haul(ed). Back in those days (early 90's) IE were strapped for cash and wanted to save money, so tried to squeeze too much from the 201.

SeanW

I think even converting Mk3s to push-pull is unnecessary - It is my understanding that Irish Rail want to get away from pull-only operation is because all Intercity trains terminate in Dublin City Centre, a congested network where a messy turnaround at a terminal platform.

The solution going forward is something like this

A
Get CAF to build another 15 Control cars refit the current MK3 fleet to match the CDE sets, use the MK3 generator vans on the enterprise service to get round the issues there

B
Buy 15 redundant class 82 DVTs from the UK. Order 15 201 class control consoles from GM, take the bogies and generators off 15 MK3 generator vans and stick them in the DVTs.

How about:
C
Find ways to redeploy the pull-only Mk3 fleet in such a way as not to involve a termination in Dublin City. By that, I mean using them on Intercity shuttles, such as the future Athone-Westport, Mallow-Tralee, and by merging some lines that run into Dublin City such as Sligo and Rosslare. The latter would have a whole rake of other advantages too, such as putting modern Intercity stock on both lines (Rosslare has crappy DMUs right now, Sligo line has antiquated but adequate IC stock due to be replaced by Rosslare-esque crappy railcars) also Sligo/Longford rail users would have direct trains to Tara St. and Pearse (a big plus post Dublin Rail Plan) and such a merge would also raise the possibility of putting heaps of traffic on the Midland Line (post DRP) leaving some current routes redundent and open for other types of traffic.

dublinguy2004

MarkoP11 wrote:

And that was with a 90mph limit, but thats non stop right ?

The target set in 1985 was 2:15 with two stops that never happened. The current vision is for 2:10. Thats a 75+mph average

Back in the really good days (1997) Thurles Dublin non stop was doable in under 65 minutes, Thurles passengers still talk of it. I made it in 64 and its 86.44 miles more or less half distance to Cork wasn't in the timetable as such but in practice it was flat out full power the whole way apart from Portarlington, despite all the upgrades I have never seen anything even close to that performance, its hard to imagine flying through Clondalkin at 80mph today. That was Cork Dublin in 2:39 with 4 stops but we sat for 11 minutes in Limerick Junction and a further 5 in Thurles

Clearly IE need to get back in gear going back to the 1994 times is not enough they should be beatable by a wide margin

So if IE are reading can we do a non stop Dublin Cork in 2:10 on the press run of the new coaches ? Can we break the Irish rail speed record ? The time has come to present a show visable proof the money is making a difference

It really beggars belief that trains are actually going slower yet millions of euro are being invested. I remain sceptical of these new trains. There's no mention of speed or journey time in that PR release. The number one factors for me as a passenger is journey time, cost and punctuality. Harping on about secondary things such as comfort and onboard facilities is but a secondary matter for me and I don't really care much. So what's the journey time gonna be? How much more punctual will these trains be? How much more expensive will it be and also how much faster will these trains be in comparison to what we have already? Are the millions of euro justified? These are the things that should be highlighted in a PR release, not the kind of gobbldy-gook as above.

Having some aerodynamic nose on the front of the train (a la TGV) is all very fine when you're cruising through France at break-neck speed, but an aerodynamic nose on a slow, mass-produced, standard diesel train is just plain silly. I really wish IE would have a bit more ambition and come up with a proper high-speed solution between the two most populous cities in Ireland.

I've never seen so much PR than that that comes out of IE. Posters everywhere, TV adverts and newspaper space all the time. I really wish they'd shut up and get on with the work. Postive PR only fools so many people but we won't be fooled forever. The reality of Irish rail remains late, slow, expensive and old. It's a joke.

John R

dublinguy2004 wrote:

It really beggars belief that trains are actually going slower yet millions of euro are being invested. I remain sceptical of these new trains. There's no mention of speed or journey time in that PR release. The number one factors for me as a passenger is journey time, cost and punctuality. Harping on about secondary things such as comfort and onboard facilities is but a secondary matter for me and I don't really care much. So what's the journey time gonna be? How much more punctual will these trains be? How much more expensive will it be and also how much faster will these trains be in comparison to what we have already? Are the millions of euro justified? These are the things that should be highlighted in a PR release, not the kind of gobbldy-gook as above.

If you actually read the thread you just posted to you would find the answers to those questions.

thejollyrodger

I dont think these new trains have an aero dynamic nose and they dont seem to go any faster.

As for high speed, well IE dont have to do any major jump IMO but they can constantly improve the rail so that they can raise the speed in different parts of the track (and reduce speed where the track hasnt been upgraded). If they were working on the track continously the journey times would defintely go down.

**but they need new tomas the tank engines because the ones they have are crap and can only go 100mph

dowlingm

The major issue is not peak speed but the speed restrictions, which force heavy acceleration and deceleration at places like Portarlington. Some parts of the network are unlikely to go higher than 160kph without tilting stock anyway so better to concentrate on getting the really bad parts of the line fixed. IE are due to start relaying the Cork-Dublin line soon as the lifespan is set at 25 years but if it's not UIC60 standard then someone should have to answer why not.

No N or M road would tolerate 10/15mph speed limits, why should railway lines like Sligo-Dublin and Ennis-Limerick?

monument

MarkoP11 wrote:

Don't believe what you read from IE

I was mainly referring to the Irish Times’ misleading article.

Solair

I think the new coaches for the Cork-Dublin service make a lot of sense. They need to move towards better standards of passanger comfort and attract business users back to the railways again. It's all very well having a couple of CityGold carriages that are only available on the odd train. However, these are pretty ancient at this stage and don't even provide facilities for laptop users (like power sockets).


Refitting the MK3s would make very little sense as it would probabally be bad value in the long run.

The new coaches are 125mph capable and in a few years time we may see increasing sections of track capable of handling these kinds of speeds.

The 201 locomotives won't last for ever and IE's older locomotives are really pushing on towards retirement. There must be some replacements options out there eventually so that we might see Cork and Dublin linked at high speed using these new trains.

MarkoP11

The existing MK3 fleet was designed for 125 mph and was tested at over 120 mph by CIE in 1984. The existing fleet can match the journey times of the new stock without question. They are in fact lighter so they could be in fact faster than the new stock. They look more or less the same as well, the last MK3 rolled out of the shed brand new from Inchicore in 1988 hardly ancient there has been zero technical advance in steel coach design since then. The MK3 is still the lightest 23m coach out there, has power doors air conditioning anti lock brakes ....

No one is criticising the need for extra rolling stock, the criticism is towards IE for promoting these new trains as a huge step forward when in fact we will have fewer seats per train, less seats with full tables etc. There is also a valid criticism that despite having 125 mph rolling stock for 21 years IE have never made any attempt to operate at this speed, trains are now significantly slower than in the mid 1990's despite now having 100 mph track and locomotives.

Now I have seen what it looks like on board, I have heard comments from people who have been on board the new trains and the view is than the interior feels narrower, which is backed by photographs I have seen A large number of the seats are airline style instead of the more comfortable and pleasant full table.

Its only 2:40 at most to Cork from next year, how long your battery last ? I travelled for years with my laptop and never felt the urge to run to the luggage rack to plug in, after all all MK3 coaches have 2 sockets hidden. The power system is in place already. We have no confirmation that sockets exist in standard class in the new coaches anyway.

Interior refurbishment is common practice to gut the interior and rebuild, the folks in GNER in the UK (who actually seriously consider there passengers) are in the process of refurnishing there BREL MK4 fleet to much acclaim. The citygold coaches started out as normal coaches and where rebuilt to there current state. However it has never been IE policy to perform interior refurbishment owing to budget constraints which has lead to the early withdrawal of other stock since they did not receive adequate maintenance, pay now or suffer later.

A massive concern is the ride recent rolling stock (Enterprise in particular) has suffered from appalling ride quality. Senior people in IE have concerns, while it is impossible to determine what the ride is like without a physical test run the suspension bears a serious resemblance to the suspension under the 2900 railcars (both CAF built) which has been criticised by many for having a poor ride.

The real underlying concern is that modern coaches less than 20 years old are to be withdrawn 10 to 15 years ahead of there lifetime while at the same time poor inadequate rolling stock is to be used on secondary routes Sligo, Rosslare. We after all as the Irish taxpayer deserve value for money

mackerski

dublinguy2004 wrote:

I really wish IE would have a bit more ambition and come up with a proper high-speed solution between the two most populous cities in Ireland.

How would that benefit Cork?

Dermot

SeanW

the suspension bears a serious resemblance to the suspension under the 2900 railcars (both CAF built) which has been criticised by many for having a poor ride.

Total bummer - the 29000 suspension is diabolical. Taking the Longford Rollercoaster oops ... Longford Commuter service with them is ... an interesting experience one is not likely to forget or want to repeat I had always hoped that the suspension on the IE MK4 would have been a radical departure from the 29000.

Just how serious a resemblence are we talking about here? How much is known about the CDE suspension? If there is an issue, is it something that can be fixed?

Solair

Nothing's known about any of this stuff.. it's all speculation so far based on the fact that someone looked at one.

Like a car, the ride quality will depend on a lot of factors including how heavy the coaches are... we'll soon find out!

I assume IE will have learned lessons from the Enterprise...