Folding Trips?

bohsman

The 100 FO in the Fitz last night, blinds are 100/200 Im in the BB with 84o
LP and Button limp and SB completes
Flop: 10s 4s 4d

Checked around to solid player on button who bets 700, SB goes all in for 3200 I have 3500 left, what do you do?

Edit: Forgot to mention SB is a rock (Harold) Button is John O Callaghan

impr0v

Tough one. Button on xT, but I'd doubt he has TT. God knows what the sb has, T4 is unlikely but the other 4 is obviously possible. I reckon you're ahead. Push.

Culchie

Solid player J 10.... all-in pusher flush draw merchant.... call me thinks you are ahead as well.

NickyOD

Ugh! The decision would have to be based purely on your read of the SB. I might lean towards folding here if knew for sure he was a very tight player because pushing is the best move if he does have the other 4 rather than slowplaying. If I had no read I would have to call here every time. I think he's more likely to be on the spade draw.

DapperGent

I don't think you can call the rock's all in. From what I've seen he could easily have TT there. If he doesn't then he has a 4 and probably has you outkicked I'd fold very quickly in that spot but only because I've played a bit with Harold.

bohsman

I think hes raising with TT and if not hes not going to overplay the flopped house on the flop

califano

thats a bit of a bastad that is. i might have to fold this as much as it would pain me. i would be thinking the button is likely to have a 10 with a high kicker or the flush draw. i would crazily worry more about the sb having the other 4. sb is the only player surely that could have the 4 and you would have to think your 8 kicker is not good?. the sb could have been dealt 4Q or something and decided to complete the blind. also after sb going all in you have to make a decision with lp and button still to act after you which doesnt help. yeah the more i think of it the more i dont like the set. yeah fold cause if i called id be either done by the flush or a boat. i would probably take the chance and call though if i had lower than the average chip stack. is my reasoning a load of nonsense or not?.

bohsman

I think Harold has a 4 but not T4 (again hes going to flat call)

So Im ahead of 42 43 45 46 47
Splitting the pot with 48
But behind 49 4J 4Q 4K 4A

He could also be pushing with Ax of spades

So should I call or fold?

NickyOD

bohsman wrote:

I think Harold has a 4 but not T4 (again hes going to flat call)

So Im ahead of 42 43 45 46 47
Splitting the pot with 48
But behind 49 4J 4Q 4K 4A

He could also be pushing with Ax of spades

So should I call or fold?

If he would make this move with the spades then its defintely a call. You're likely to split the pot against 49 as well. so there is really only 4 hands you can be afraid of.

ocallagh

"harold is the KING of slow playing" - a quote from kpnuts a few months back that i remember quite well. He would have played a house much slower so you can rule out T4 or TT..

I don't think he's pushing with a flush draw so i have him on a 4 (with any kicker).. I might have folded.

Lafortezza

If it's Harold then he either has the other 4 or a decent T, QT or KT. The buttons autobet means little, over cards probably. The chance that harold could have a T or a weaker 4 than you means you should push. He hasn't a clue what you have since you haven't done anything in the hand.

DocO

ive played a few times against harold. one hand in particular i was one off harold who was on button. ive kj, flop comes j j 6. two hearts. small stack at bottom or table calls in, ive him well covered and flat call. harold calls too. next card no heart or any immediate danger. i raise harold all in. he calls and hits his heart on the river, tue night double chance. just to show that he also plays draws. (small stack had trips too, with bad kicker)
but sayin that i think he has trips aswell, with the kicker being your major problem. did you ever find out about the hand? what each person had?

Daithio

Alright Oscar, tough one but I reckon you've got to fold. Harold without a doubt has a four, there's a small chance your kicker is ahead but it's not worth the gamble especially with so little invested in the pot. Also Harold is such a rock that he wouldn't have played with 24 even from the small blind so that reduces another one of the cards he may have with it. In a cash game I might have called but in a tournament it's a fold against Harold. Your stack is still grand too. What did you do anyway?

Lafortezza

Would Harold not make the c/r all-in with a decent Ten?

careca

I'm a bit surprised that everyone thinks he has a four (I know Oscars post leads you to thinking that way). He could also make that move with an overpair. Its the exact position to slow play them (one caller and only bb to come). He almost certainly knows the first player doesn't have a 4 as it would have been a bad call and he only has the BB to worry about. Ok, its a bad move to put all your chips in with a pair on board but its a possibility.

Daithio

I don't know. Harold is so tight and solid he would definitely not risk a check raise with a decent ten or even an overpair. I don't think he'd limp from that position with an overpair anyway. Possibly if it was just a battle of the blinds but not with another limper. He's too cautious for that. He only ever slowplays from early position with a hope to reraise. I'd put my life on him having a four here and the odds are he has a better kicker. He only risks all his chips when he has the goods, which would include a 4 with a worse kicker than Oscar's 8, but this is a gamble you don't need to take in a tourney IMO. What did you do anyway Oscar?

careca

Ya, I suppose the main info we got in that thread was the word 'Harold'. Fairly tight alright.

Culchie

OK, the suspense is killing me what happened next ?

Waylander

It looks like he is holdign A4 or K4 to me. I think I would curse myself and lay it down, particularly if he is the rock people are saying he is.

NickyOD

If oscar believes he can make this move with a 4 with any kicker or a spade draw then its an automatic all.

pokertroll

Waylander wrote:

It looks like he is holdign A4 or K4 to me. I think I would curse myself and lay it down, particularly if he is the rock people are saying he is.

I think you acted correctly in folding at this stage of the tournament, Oscar, especially against the likes of Harold. Against most other players in the Fitz I would call as they would most likely play a strong 10 the same way.

I had a decision to make against Harold in the same tournament on the Final table.

With 5 players left, I was chip leader on about 80k with blinds of 1 2. Gibbo (50k) raised to 6k from early position and I flat called with AQ. Harold (11k) flat called from the SB.
Flop is 8s,6h,10h. Harold is first to act and pushes in for his remaining 5k.
Gibbo (the only player who has enough chips to cause me damage) folds.

Its only 5k for me to call into a pot of 25k (2+6+6+6+5) even though I have nothing but 2 overcards but called. If harold wins this pot he's is back in the game. I called and Harold had Ah8h for middle pair and nut flush draw (was surprised he played this hand before the flop).
I hit a Q on the river to eliminate him - lucky me!

roryc

Id call, but the fact that it is harold would make me think twice about it.

Still call though.

If he has 10 10 or 10 4, then its unlucky.
If hes drawing to a flush then its anybody's.
If he has 4 with a better kicker you still have outs for a split.

What did the button have?

bohsman

The button had JT, I folded as did the limper and button, Harold showed A4, Still not sure if its a good fold or not, you can rule out the spades as he would check call, I think he would also check call with a strong 10, I folded because I felt I could pick a better spot than that.
As it happens I didnt and got blinded away before making a stand with the muck that is AJ

Daithio

Definitely a good fold imo. You have to play the player, and Harold isn't going to do that without a four. Praying that his kicker is worse than yours or hoping for a split if it's better isn't worth the risk, especially considering how little you've invested in the pot. I agree with pokertroll though, almost any other player and I call.

DeVore

If it wasnt Harold I'd have called. Even then I'd seriously have thought about it. I think he would make that move with AT because the initial bet out is weak and indicates no 4 so he's likely to be ahead with AT. Flush draw he'd call imho. Over pair he would push imho so thats also a possibility. Good fold though, its 50/50 but as someone else said, the key word here is "Harold"

DeV.

Lafortezza

I think you're all giving Harold too much credit for being an absolute rock. And I think it would have been a good play for oscar to get all his chips in after Harold's all-in.

bohsman

Harolds idea of bluffing is betting his overhouse when someone could have a poker