Getting cards early in a STT

impr0v

Though I know it's not the case, sometimes it seems like getting relatively strong hands early in a STT can be a curse.

Played this $25stt earlier, in the first hand I had JJ and flat called a 4x BB raise along with 4 others. I decided to lay them down after the flop came Q high and there were two betting before me. The turn and river were both K's and two players bet at each opportunity, the winner with QJ and the other with 95o, losing 1100 odd (there were no 9's or 5's on the board!).

Second hand goes like this:

[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Hand Start.
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Seat 1 : josephjohn8 has $1,960
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Seat 2 : TheMaker has $2,000
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Seat 3 : sean78 has $2,000
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Seat 4 : Quahogs3 has $3,640
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Seat 5 : dollars999 has $2,000
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Seat 6 : Nonnos has $1,640
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Seat 7 : impr0v has $1,800
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Seat 8 : shotgunjohn has $980
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Seat 9 : aces+eights has $1,980
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : aces+eights is the dealer.
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : josephjohn8 posted small blind.
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : TheMaker posted big blind.
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Game [2] started with 9 players.
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jul 26 12:02:33] : Seat 7 : impr0v has Kc As
[Jul 26 12:02:44] : sean78 called 40
[Jul 26 12:02:46] : Quahogs3 folded.
[Jul 26 12:02:46] : dollars999 folded.
[Jul 26 12:02:46] : Nonnos folded.
[Jul 26 12:02:50] : impr0v called 40 and raised 85
[Jul 26 12:02:51] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 6 min.
[Jul 26 12:02:55] : shotgunjohn called 125 and raised 855 and is All-in
[Jul 26 12:02:58] : aces+eights called 980
[Jul 26 12:03:03] : josephjohn8 folded.
[Jul 26 12:03:09] : TheMaker folded.
[Jul 26 12:03:11] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 6 min.
[Jul 26 12:03:13] : sean78 folded.
[Jul 26 12:03:28] : It's your turn.
[Jul 26 12:03:28] : impr0v has 10 seconds to respond.

85 is a poor raise, I know, but slightly better than out and out limping. shotgunjohn is the gifted player that made the move with 95o in the last hand, so I'm not overly worried about him. The other player flat calling is more dangerous but I've played with him before and my notes weren't overly complimentary. I've nothing committed at this stage so could easily back out, and usually would do, but I'm conscious that It's a good chance to gain a sizeable chip advantage early on and I'm pretty sure I'm ahead.

Would you push or fold?

Culchie

Easy Push for me.

Hectorjelly

Id fold and wouldnt of raised in the first place.

califano

dont underestimate that shotgunjohn ive seen him play in $500 1x1 games and big($198) rebuys with some success. maybe he's just rich but he might be gus hansen good like.

impr0v

Hectorjelly wrote:

Id fold and wouldnt of raised in the first place.

Usually I wouldn't either, but I think laying down the JJ distorted my judgement and made me reluctant to let another marginally good hand go for nothing, which then led me into the above mess.

Culchie

Easy fold for me

Hectorjelly

impr0v wrote:

Usually I wouldn't either, but I think laying down the JJ distorted my judgement and made me reluctant to let another marginally good hand go for nothing, which then led me into the above mess.

Yeah I do that sometimes. You played very well with the JJ. Basically in the first few rounds a player of your calibre should be avoiding coinflips if possible.

impr0v

rounders123 wrote:

dont underestimate that shotgunjohn ive seen him play in $500 1x1 games and big($198) rebuys with some success. maybe he's just rich but he might be gus hansen good like.

Apologies to John for calling him gifted but I hadn't come across him before and you have to admit it would be hard to underestimate him given his play in the first hand.

Rodge

I fold. No way am I putting most of my chips on the line preflop with Ak in the second hand of a tournament.

sharkfood

Hi Impr0v

I notice you from VC

As it's already been said, id of limped with the AK and fold to any raise. Another problem with flat calling the raise after limping is your going to be out of position on the flop.

As for the shotgunjohn fella, ive played with him maybe 5 times? (guess!) and on each i remember him being loose and being knocked out early on. Because someone plays $500 1x1 games, doesn't mean they are a good player. From what i witnessed, he was "far" (too strong a word?) from it.

SF

Ardent

Well what happened?

I'd probably have called. Let me guess, shotgunjohn has a high pair which held up and the other caller had a high ace?

gdez

Personally i think it's a judgement call concerning what u put aces+eights on, if u out him on a pair drop them, if not i'd go over the top of him & make him make a decision.
If your just not sure what he has, then i'd also drop them at this point.

impr0v

As is probably obvious from what i've said above I pushed. I was never going to call and I put shotgunjohn on a mid pair, which I was willing to take a chance on since I had him covered, and I put aces+eights on something like QJo or worse. I don't think it was a sensible decision but, as I mentioned above, the previous hand had a negative influence on my decision making.

[Jul 26 12:03:29] : impr0v called 855 and raised 820 and is All-in
[Jul 26 12:03:29] : Under-Raise rules are now in effect.
[Jul 26 12:03:31] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 6 min.
[Jul 26 12:03:35] : aces+eights called 820
[Jul 26 12:03:36] : Showdown!
[Jul 26 12:03:36] : Seat 7 : impr0v has Kc As
[Jul 26 12:03:38] : Seat 7 : impr0v has Kc As
[Jul 26 12:03:38] : Seat 8 : shotgunjohn has 8d 8s
[Jul 26 12:03:38] : Seat 9 : aces+eights has 6h Ah
[Jul 26 12:03:46] : Board cards [5d 6s Qd 9d Js]
[Jul 26 12:03:46] : Seat 7 : impr0v has Kc As
[Jul 26 12:03:46] : impr0v has High Card : Ace
[Jul 26 12:03:47] : Seat 9 : aces+eights has 6h Ah
[Jul 26 12:03:47] : aces+eights has Pair: 6s
[Jul 26 12:03:47] : aces+eights wins 1,640 with Pair: 6s
[Jul 26 12:03:47] : Seat 7 : impr0v has Kc As
[Jul 26 12:03:47] : impr0v has High Card : Ace
[Jul 26 12:03:47] : Seat 8 : shotgunjohn has 8d 8s
[Jul 26 12:03:47] : shotgunjohn has Pair: 8s
[Jul 26 12:03:47] : Seat 9 : aces+eights has 6h Ah
[Jul 26 12:03:47] : aces+eights has Pair: 6s
[Jul 26 12:03:47] : shotgunjohn wins 3,040 with Pair: 8s
[Jul 26 12:03:52] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 5 min.
[Jul 26 12:04:02] : Hand is over.

gdez

I think you trusted your read, which was right & made the right decision.
U had Aces&Eights dominated which was the main thing & you were almost 50:50 with shotgun.
Unfortunately Bad luck prevailed, but i think u made the right play.

Rodge

He may have had the A6 dominated but he certainly didnt have 88 dominated.

Pokerstove says that AK will win only 33% of the time. He is not 50:50 with shotgun because one of his aces is gone already, reducing his chances.

I never thought AK could be in such a bad spot three handed unless there was AA or KK out there. Makes me think anyway.

The Snapper

OK the STT debate goes and goes on here. My humble tuppence worth is.

Fold fold fold

You enter tourney as a decent player against a mixed bag but for argument sake lets assume mostly inferior opposition.

Level 1 All-in call on coin flip at best is giving away your advantage.

At this level in STT's it is adviseable to only get involved with top holding AK big pp's etc and for a raise of at least 4 x BB. As a general rule early play in these events is very loose. Suck out type scenarios are very much the norm, with players calling with all sorts of garbage.