Horrible turn play

Hectorjelly

I misplayed this turn so bad, also I think I bet too much on the river. When he raised me on the flop I thought he had either a set or middle pair testing the waters. When he calls the turn check raise I know he has to have a set cause the ace doesnt scare him. Unfortunately again this is against one of the better players at this level. Any ideas for a better turn/river line that will get as much of his stack into the pot as possible. He had a set of threes.

He has just sat down so allthough we know each other he has no idea how Im playing.

Real Money Ring Game
Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
The Commitments 3451889-25635 Holdem No Limit $0.50/$1
[Jul 26 11:27:33] : Hand Start.
[Jul 26 11:27:33] : Seat 1 : poppadok has $154.75
[Jul 26 11:27:33] : Seat 2 : gforce8 has $40.25
[Jul 26 11:27:33] : Seat 4 : hectorjelly has $628.26
[Jul 26 11:27:33] : Seat 5 : Motto7 has $121.12
[Jul 26 11:27:33] : Seat 6 : krah has $207.21
[Jul 26 11:27:33] : poppadok is the dealer.
[Jul 26 11:27:33] : gforce8 posted small blind.
[Jul 26 11:27:34] : hectorjelly posted big blind.
[Jul 26 11:27:34] : Game [25635] started with 5 players.
[Jul 26 11:27:34] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jul 26 11:27:34] : Seat 4 : hectorjelly has Ah Ad
[Jul 26 11:27:35] : Motto7 folded.
[Jul 26 11:27:37] : krah called $1
[Jul 26 11:27:38] : poppadok called $1
[Jul 26 11:27:38] : gforce8 called $0.50
[Jul 26 11:27:42] : hectorjelly raised $4
[Jul 26 11:27:49] : krah called $4
[Jul 26 11:27:51] : poppadok folded.
[Jul 26 11:27:51] : gforce8 folded.
[Jul 26 11:27:52] : Dealing flop.
[Jul 26 11:27:52] : Board cards [5h 9s 3c]
[Jul 26 11:27:55] : hectorjelly bet $6
[Jul 26 11:27:58] : krah called $6 and raised $12
[Jul 26 11:28:01] : hectorjelly called $12
[Jul 26 11:28:01] : Dealing turn.
[Jul 26 11:28:01] : Board cards [5h 9s 3c As]
[Jul 26 11:28:03] : hectorjelly checked.
[Jul 26 11:28:08] : krah bet $25
[Jul 26 11:28:13] : hectorjelly called $25 and raised $45
[Jul 26 11:28:19] : krah called $45
[Jul 26 11:28:19] : Dealing river.
[Jul 26 11:28:19] : Board cards [5h 9s 3c As Jh]
[Jul 26 11:28:21] : hectorjelly bet $535.26 and is All-in
[Jul 26 11:28:35] : krah has 10 seconds to respond.
[Jul 26 11:28:45] : krah did not respond and is folded
[Jul 26 11:28:48] : hectorjelly wins $185 as the last player standing

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

[Jul 26 11:28:21] : hectorjelly bet $535.26 and is All-in

lol. I'm definitely reraising the turn harder here but I wouldn't do it quickly. I'd probably take some time and raise it up to $75. Since he is not afraid of the Ace he's definitely got a set or A9 so he is not going to fold there and is more likely to pay off a river bet with more of his chips in the pot. I'd probably just bet $50 on the river. I'm not a lover of the all in with the nuts move but to be fair there's only a tiny fraction of players who can fold an underset at these tables. You would have cleaned most players out here for certain.

Hectorjelly

If I was going to check raise I should of check raised him big on the turn so that he was committed on the river. The river bet wasnt actually that big, he had less than the size of the pot behind.

Ste05

Have to agree with Nicky here, I also hate the All-in with the nuts move, I would have bet about 35 which IMO looks like quite a weak stealing raise, with possibly 2 pair and may entice him to try and reraise you. At the very least you will get a call and another 35, I think the all-in is too much and also the 50 is too much because it shows real strength and is unlikely to enduce a re-raise, I think the way to play here is to at least give him a chance to re-raise. And then push all-in

Hectorjelly

The pot is $180, a bet of $35 would be an insult. He had about 130 left or so, I wasnt really betting 500. If someone is able to fold their bottom set to an all in they are hardly likely to reraise me on the river. What purpose would their raise serve?

I always read these joke amounts for river bets, you should always be betting at least half and more like 2/3 3/3 of trhe pot. Anything else lets your opponents away cheaply and makes you unable to bluff.

RoundTower

I think I lead out on the turn. Quite likely he has 88 or K9 or something and will fold, but then you won't be getting all his money anyway. I have to disagree with Nicky and Ste05 here, I hate the underbet with the nuts move, so if you play it like this I don't think you bet too much on the river.

Rodge

Hectorjelly wrote:

If I was going to check raise I should of check raised him big on the turn so that he was committed on the river. The river bet wasnt actually that big, he had less than the size of the pot behind.

I was going to say this. A bigger raise to get him committed leaving him little choice but to call on the river.
Its obvious he started to smell a rat though with your check raise and fair play to him for laying it down. I know I would have been all in when you re raised on the turn.

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

The pot is $180, a bet of $35 would be an insult. He had about 130 left or so, I wasnt really betting 500. If someone is able to fold their bottom set to an all in they are hardly likely to reraise me on the river. What purpose would their raise serve?

I get your point, but the fact that the bet is an insult is my whole point, I don't think any half decent player is going to call all their chips without the nuts, although it was a $180 pot, I still don't think he was pot committed, he still had 130 or so, and would you "call" for another 130 without the nuts - I don't think so, unless you have an amazing read on your opponent.

Obviously there's alot of different ways and styles of playing and the way I play this move works out well, and alot of people fail to realise the golden rule of "weak means strong" and even if he calls and you show down, it allows you to try and steal later pots with a much smaller bet. But as you said you know this guy so maybe it wouldn't work for you, but I really dislike the all-in with the nuts, however I'd be interested how many loose calls do you actually get with this strategy, maybe I could add it to my arsenal.

Hectorjelly

Ste05 wrote:

I get your point, but the fact that the bet is an insult is my whole point, I don't think any half decent player is going to call all their chips without the nuts, although it was a $180 pot, I still don't think he was pot committed, he still had 130 or so, and would you "call" for another 130 without the nuts - I don't think so, unless you have an amazing read on your opponent.

Obviously there's alot of different ways and styles of playing and the way I play this move works out well, and alot of people fail to realise the golden rule of "weak means strong" and even if he calls and you show down, it allows you to try and steal later pots with a much smaller bet. But as you said you know this guy so maybe it wouldn't work for you, but I really dislike the all-in with the nuts, however I'd be interested how many loose calls do you actually get with this strategy, maybe I could add it to my arsenal.

We are playing totally different games. How often do you have the nuts? Are you saying you wouldnt call all in with AA on a board of 55Axx. Because you dont have the nuts you know? Or how about a king high flush? Or how about two pair when an obvious overpair pushes the turn. Are you in the habit of folding sets? If I have a set on the river and there is no obv st8 or flush then Im calling all in 99 times out of 100.

There was nothing special about the bet on the river, its just that the pot was so big that it happened to put him all in. Thats a totally different move than overbetting.

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

We are playing totally different games. How often do you have the nuts? Are you saying you wouldnt call all in with AA on a board of 55Axx. Because you dont have the nuts you know? Or how about a king high flush? Or how about two pair when an obvious overpair pushes the turn. Are you in the habit of folding sets?

Well these are all obvious calls with out anything saying otherwise. Although K high flush would be very risky to CALL an all-in.
And yes I have folded sets when I think I'm beaten

But in general I take your point, and without any real straight/ flush, on board it would be hard to pass, but it is still an awfully large amount to CALL All-in. It was a very difficult river to play, but as the thread was about the turn problems, I shall leave it at that. I still think though (sticking simply to the point on the river), after how this hand played out it would be difficult to call for all my chips without the nuts or at least JJ, whereas I'd be much more inclined to raise with a small set here, he obviously have put you on a high pair AA - JJ's and with two of them out it was hard to "call" an all in. But as you say, it's obvious we just both have different styles.

I think the basic difference though is that you will call All-in alot more than me. I absolutely hate to call for all my chips. And will readily fold the second nut hand, (obviously before I get pasted depending on the situation, pot size, stack size, pot comitted, etc. etc.) But the way I play before this situation, this very rarely arises, (i.e. without this turn problem - which makes this argument probably moot but anyway and we could probably agree if there was a bigger check-raise or a smooth call) I much prefer to raise All-In than to call, and that's probably the difference in our River with the Nuts plays too. But different strokes and all that.

Vamos

May be a check call on the turn representing a pair of aces and an all in representing aces and jacks on the river would have got all his stack.
The small check raise on the turn smelt of a milking bet.

bohsman

You have to bet the pot on the river, the fact that on tribeca you have to press max then bet just makes it look like a massive overbet its just easier than typing in the exact amount. I think youre just unlucky that he was able to lay it down.