NTR claiming M50 delays are not due to the toll plaza

m_stan

According to this report on rte news NTR are claiming that the delays on the M50 are not due to the toll plaza, but due to limited capacity and bad interchange design. Seemingly some independent shower of consultants (paid by NTR of course) back this up.

While we all know the motorway is too small, and the interchanges suck - consider the following-

Why did it take me 1hr today to drive from Sandyford to the Toll Plaza, and 7 minutes to drive from the Toll Plaza to the M1 if the Toll Plaza has nothing to do with it ? This is not a once off ? This happens to me every day of the week. And this is July - one of the quietest times of the year.

Also, NTR have one of the highest profit margins of all public companies in Ireland, yet the charge more for the Eazypass system than for cash collection.

Arrrggg ! This stuff just makes me mad !

thatkindofgirl

What a pile of steaming poo.

I heard this as well -- just after my 45 minute drive home -- and approx 25 minutes of that was spent travelling c. 0 km/h on the run up to the blanchardstown exit, southbound.

Once I was through the toll plaza -- ZOoooooooooooom. I was free, road open, etc. Took me no time at all from Santry to the toll plaza standstill. It's a classic bottleneck.

In the end, it's not NTR's fault.

It's the bleedin gov'ts fault for being so inept that the only way we have the bridge is because they sold our daily commutes to a private and greedy company.

National infrastructure should be owned by the people, not by private companies. Now that the bridge is paid for, there should be no more tolls.

DubTony

thatkindofgirl wrote:

Now that the bridge is paid for, there should be no more tolls.

Ah but they built another bridge that has to be paid for ....

Thomond Pk

Well theres 650m Euro out of the 10 year capital plan, it appears that the 850m M50 upgrade might actually work.

DubTony

I drove to Galway yesterday and left Firhouse at 11 am. It took 40 minutes to get to the N4 exit. The thing is that the traffic didn't start until I was halfway between the Ballymount and N7 junctions. It was bedlam. A friend was 1o minutes ahead of me heading to Finglas and wouldn't you know, as soon as paid the toll he was away. No more traffic.

I heard on the radio that NTR claim that the toll bridges add an average of less than 2 minutes to an M50 journey. :eek: The only way they could come up with that number is if they included the hours between 9 pm and 6 am in their research. It's amazing what they can do with numbers. They also probably only counted the time spent in the vicinity of the actual toll plaza.

I heard an Eazy-Pass radio ad highlighting the new express lanes. The ad was very careful to inform listeners that using Eazy-Pass would get you through the toll quicker. Of course it didn't say anything about getting to the toll any quicker.

Genghis

I dunno, things are never black and white, and the design of some of the interchanges is criminal. There are also other issues like the designed capacity and the actual capacity of the road (which has always fallen short, and is now chronic).

But if NTR are so confident that the toll bridge is not the problem why not open it up for one day and show us that the problem is elsewhere. Better proof than some theoretical study by paid-for consultants. Or are they that confident?

MorningStar

DubTony wrote:

Ah but they built another bridge that has to be paid for ....

Except in the case of the east link it was paid for given to the local authorities and then they still kept the charge and the money went to them. The same authority that are about to lose €33m property for €1m

BrianD3

Why did it take me 1hr today to drive from Sandyford to the Toll Plaza, and 7 minutes to drive from the Toll Plaza to the M1 if the Toll Plaza has nothing to do with it ? This is not a once off ? This happens to me every day of the week. And this is July - one of the quietest times of the year.

I don't think NTR are saying that the plaza has nothing to do with conjestion but that it isn't a big a factor as people think. Take your journey from sandyford to the M1. If they remove the toll plaza then traffic will arrive at the interchanges on the northside quicker than before. If the interchanges cannot cope with this increased traffic flow then you might get traffic backed up onto the motorway mainline causing major conjestion and a road safety hazard.

I don't know what the true story is. I would like to see a fully independent study done on this. Just opening the toll barriers gates for a week will not give a true picture as drivers will have to slow down to maybe 10 or 20 mph to get through the toll plaza safely. So it will still obstruct traffic flow significantly.

DubTony

Genghis wrote:

I dunno, things are never black and white, and the design of some of the interchanges is criminal. There are also other issues like the designed capacity and the actual capacity of the road (which has always fallen short, and is now chronic).

But if NTR are so confident that the toll bridge is not the problem why not open it up for one day and show us that the problem is elsewhere. Better proof than some theoretical study by paid-for consultants. Or are they that confident?

Absolutely. The design of the interchanges is based on what the Yanks did in the 40's and the Brits did in the 60's. They are atrocious. As for opening the tolls for a day? It happened once. Remember New Years Eve of 1999? NTR refused to pay their staff extra figuring it wouldn't cost damn all to open the thing for that one shift

BrianD3 wrote:

...If they remove the toll plaza then traffic will arrive at the interchanges on the northside quicker than before. If the interchanges cannot cope with this increased traffic flow then you might get traffic backed up onto the motorway mainline causing major conjestion and a road safety hazard.

I don't know what the true story is. I would like to see a fully independent study done on this. Just opening the toll barriers gates for a week will not give a true picture as drivers will have to slow down to maybe 10 or 20 mph to get through the toll plaza safely. So it will still obstruct traffic flow significantly.

Agreed Brian. Traffic will hit the junctions in record time. We already see this with the traffic from the east now clogging up the M50 instead of the roads around Cabinteely, Sanyford and Leopardstown. The interchanges already cannot handle what happens and the toll plaza acts as a type of traffic control. This is why open road tolling has not been introduced. It's not all down to NTR. Government has a hand in this nonsense as well.

The annoying thing is that when it's not busy - it's still busy. The traffic jam yesterday took in only 2 exits and both of these were completely clear. I was told that the north side was clear as well. The only reason for traffic was the toll. Opening the toll at peak times would be chaotic but as an experiment, the tolls could be opened at an unannounced "quiet" time (not 2am) just to see what would happen. This would require little forward planning and would give a better indication than any study. But that probably won't happen because then there'd be proof of the ineptitude of our public servants. (Like we needed any more).

stag39

my opinion is that the delays on the M50 are definently down to the interchanges and the lack of a third lane...especially the red cow roundabout interchange...also the lack of motorway driving training for all people...

Have you ever noticed that ...travelling northbound when you get near the redcow interchange or before that, the traffic crawls and then about halfway to the M4 interchange, that the traffic speeds up...the toll plaza is not the main problem..it is the filtering of traffic after the interchanges....

There will always be a small holdup at the toll plaza due to the fact of the traffic having to stop or slow down (with regard to what type of payment)....

Its a catch 22 situation..when they will improve the interchanges/plaza/third lane there will be even more traffic and hold ups at different stages of the motorway...

The only way i see the situation improving is to move the people who live down the country and who work in dublin is to build higher buildings and allow them to move back to the city...

loyatemu

The only way i see the situation improving is to move the people who live down the country and who work in dublin is to build higher buildings and allow them to move back to the city...


people who live in big houses down the country are hardly likely to move back to dublin to live in high-rise apartments.

better public transport!
better public transport!
better public transport!

are you listening Bertie?? - you've had 8 years in govt and you've done f##k all
you haven't approved a single significant transport scheme for dublin in all that time!

m_stan

Public transport is the real answer - get everyone off the roads. We should have planned it like in the US and other countries where they built raliways alongside motorways. But then I guess we should be grateful that they planned on a third lane. No chance of adding a fourth - unless we want to take all the interchanges down.

Whats the craic with the Metro Bertie ?

AndrewMc

BrianD3 wrote:

If they remove the toll plaza then traffic will arrive at the interchanges on the northside quicker than before.

But since people will be divided between different interchanges (rather than all in one toll plaza), is it not possible that the delays will also be divided and therefore smaller? Don't know - not a driver

murphaph

loyatemu wrote:

are you listening Bertie?? - you've had 8 years in govt and you've done f##k all
you haven't approved a single significant transport scheme for dublin in all that time!

Indeed. That's one hell of an indictment of this 'government'.

Zynks

It might be quite an indictment, but once election time comes again, guess who will be voted in...

statto

Definitely the bridge causing most of the trouble. Was driving southbound at 2pm on the M50 Saturday two weeks ago. Traffic backed up solid northbound from N7 junction through the N4 junction on to the toll bridge. Didn't see many cars going up the N4 slip road!

Sherlock

Of course its the toll plaza thats causing the hold up. Just look at what happens when you get through it, the road is clear again. This talk of motorists only being delayed for less than 2 minutes is ludicrous. As soon as I saw the report was comissioned by NTR I knew it'd be a favourable one for them

m_stan

Zynks wrote:

It might be quite an indictment, but once election time comes again, guess who will be voted in...

that's exactly why well all have a duty to ensure this becomes an election issue. I firmly believe if you get enough motorists engaged in this debate and talking to their local TD's about it, the news will filter back up to the big guns that they need to do something about the shambolic deal they signed with NTR and get the toll bridge on the M50 bought out.

fiachs

The third lane on the motorway won't be any help... it's been proven time and again that if there's extra capacity it'll be filled because people will use the roads when maybe they would have gotten the bus before. Any road use prediction always fails because they model on increased population not people changing over from other modes / roads. Instead of building the third lane they should focus on converting the junctions asap to tri-grade and put the extra money into public transport. Like the Clondalkin-Lucan Luas!

thatkindofgirl

fiachs wrote:

The third lane on the motorway won't be any help... it's been proven time and again that if there's extra capacity it'll be filled because people will use the roads when maybe they would have gotten the bus before. Any road use prediction always fails because they model on increased population not people changing over from other modes / roads. Instead of building the third lane they should focus on converting the junctions asap to tri-grade and put the extra money into public transport. Like the Clondalkin-Lucan Luas!

That's rubbish. The population of motorists cannot increase indefinitely, which you are suggesting.

At home our highways are not as congested as here -- because the highways are sufficient for the population.

Oh -- and before they go building more luas thingies, perhaps they want to upgrade the rail and bus networks so that they work.

I've cut my commute from 3 hours a day to just slightly over an hour by buying a car, and that includes the time spent at the westlink travesty. As long as the difference can be that dramatic -- people will continue to drive as soon as they can afford it.

Victor

MorningStar wrote:

Except in the case of the east link it was paid for given to the local authorities and then they still kept the charge and the money went to them. The same authority that are about to lose €33m property for €1m

????????

Victor

thatkindofgirl wrote:

That's rubbish. The population of motorists cannot increase indefinitely, which you are suggesting.

But usage can. Why shop locally when you can go to Dundrum, The Square, Liffey Valley, Blanchardstown and the Pavillions?

loyatemu

I've cut my commute from 3 hours a day to just slightly over an hour by buying a car, and that includes the time spent at the westlink travesty. As long as the difference can be that dramatic -- people will continue to drive as soon as they can afford it.

if it was taking you 3 hours to commute by public transport that that just proves the case for more investment in better public transport.

The hour you are now spending in your car is as good as its going to get, espect to be taking a lot longer once the M50 roadworks start.

thatkindofgirl

Yes, but they're not going to invest in improving the existing rail network -- they'll come up with something else new and shiny like the Luas.

m_stan

thatkindofgirl wrote:

Yes, but they're not going to invest in improving the existing rail network -- they'll come up with something else new and shiny like the Luas.

yeah and that will only take another 10 years and half a bazzillion euro !

stag39

Thatkindofgirl
>quote>That's rubbish. The population of motorists cannot increase indefinitely, which you are suggesting.>>

Is it not true that the population is getting bigger all the time, no?
look at how many people are coming permanently from abroad and improving our lifestyle!!

>>quote
At home our highways are not as congested as here -- because the highways are sufficient for the population.>>quote

Where is home? The motorways are sufficent for our population as well for the most part...it's just that we don't have a complete ringroad around Dublin yet...
we have come a long way in the last 25 years...

The Luas is by far better than bus or rail...!!!!
and the sooner there is a complete Luas system serving all parts of the city the better as there will be very few cars on the road then...

and to further fiachs comments on the Clondalkin-Lucan Luas... when this is built i can see a massive reduction of the traffic coming into the city so come on bertie get the finger out....

Mailman

Just got a mail from NTR telling me they are closing second eazypass lane as it is causing jams at the toll bridge. If they admit that a lane is capable of causing a delay then their arguement that the toll plaza doesn't cause major delays is blown out of the water.

Here is the mail:

INFORMATION BULLETIN RE WEST-LINK TOLL PLAZA LANE CHANGES


Eazy Pass customers at West-Link will be aware that the layout at the Plaza was changed at the
end of July, with the introduction of a second dedicated Eazy Pass lane in each direction.

The second lane was introduced as part of a strong marketing campaign to encourage the migration
to electronic tolling, as Eazy Pass lanes process twice the number of vehicles per hour than a
cash/operator lane.

The introduction of the second lane and supporting marketing campaign generated a large number
of new Eazy Pass applications. However, the removal of the automatic 'basket' lane in order to
provide the second Eazy Pass lane had an adverse effect on traffic flows through the Plaza, as
the queues to the one remaining automatic 'basket' lane blocked the Eazy Pass lanes. The
experience of Eazy Pass customers is that while their passage through the Plaza has improved,
the queues experienced approaching the Plaza have increased. Therefore, the overall journey time
for all M50 users has deteriorated.

As a result of the above, NTR Roads has decided to withdraw the second Eazy Pass lane at
West-Link in the short-term with effect from Monday, 29th August 2005. While still fully
committed to the introduction of full electronic tolling, we believe this decision is in the
best interests of all our customers using the Plaza.

NTR Roads is progressing a number of additional initiatives to improve traffic flows through the
Plaza including:

- Re-aligning the M50 and N4 northbound approaches to the bridge to provide an unimpeded Eazy
Pass lane on the right-hand side of the bridge
- Introducing a new supervisory and camera system to identify "problem" transactions in the
Eazy Pass lanes - these are in the main caused by users who do not attach their Eazy Pass tag to
their windscreen. If the tag is not mounted it can lead to sporadic delays in the tag being
registered. A delay of just 30 seconds can lead to a queue of 8 to 10 vehicles which is a source
of frustration for other Eazy Pass customers. We encourage Eazy Pass customers who require a
replacement tag holder to contact us.
- An extensive video-based study of our cash customers and a Behaviour & Attitudes customer
survey will be conducted to identify usage patterns, which will help us determine how to attract
frequent and peak time users to migrate to electronic tolling
- In conjunction with the NRA, in the coming months NTR Roads will be introducing gantry
(overhead) signage well in advance of the Plaza to help identify lanes and payment options.


As you will be aware, the upgrade of the M50 is due to commence later this year. This upgrade
will include the introduction of full electronic tolling which, over time, will require the
migration of cash customers to Eazy Pass. Our analysis, research and experience of the first
dedicated Eazy Pass lane, which opened in July 2004, indicated that a second dedicated lane at
this stage would encourage and facilitate that migration.

Unfortunately, this has not been the case. If we are to manage the balance between the traffic
flow through the Plaza and the overall M50 performance, we need to encourage a greater uptake of
Eazy Pass, particularly by frequent and peak time users. The initiatives outlined above will, we
believe, further demonstrate the benefits of Eazy Pass and increase usage of the system. This
will allow NTR Roads to assess the timing of the re-introduction of the second dedicated Eazy
Pass lane at West-Link.

NTR Roads very much regrets any inconvenience to our Eazy Pass customers. However, we firmly
believe that this decision is in the best of interests of all our customers.


Kyran Hurley
Managing Director
NTR Roads

FinoBlad

I signed up for Eazy Pass on the basis they were introducing more lanes, now they've gone backwards I think I'll return it.

ishmael whale

The economic report commissioned by NTR attempting to back the continued paying of a toll is probably old hat at this stage, but I was just leafing through it when this thought came to mind. DKM consultants claim the cost of a state buyback of Westlink would be in excess of €500 million based on 2004 figures. However, based on what IAWS paid to increase its stake at the start of 2005, €524 million seems to be the value of the whole NTR company which includes more than just Westlink. I don’t doubt NTR’s right to erect a roadblock on the M50 is their main substantive asset, but surely their interests in Eastlink, Airtricity etc count for something.

Can anyone reconcile these figures? Does this suggest the NTR/DKM estimate is excessive?

http://www.dkmeconomics.ie/other/pubarticles/2005_07_Westlink_final.pdf

“(i) The cost of buyback; based on 2004 toll revenues this would cost in
excess of €500 million.”

http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0118/ntr.html

Irish Agricultural Wholesale Society Limited, known as the IAWS co-op, has increased its stake in infrastructure company NTR to nearly 20.8%....NTR shares are traded on an unofficial 'grey market'. It is understood they have recently been trading at around the €21-22 range. Broker sources suggest the latest stake building, involving the purchase of one million NTR shares, values NTR at around €524m.

NTR owns the east and west link toll bridges. It also has a 51% stake in wind energy group Airtricity and owns the Greenstar waste management business.

m_stan

Not sure about the figures, though I do know NTR have their fingers in some very wholesome pies including Greenstar the waste management company.

According to todays Sunday World (page 51), the government are "desperatley trying to buy their way out of the contract for the M50 Westlink toll-bridge", according to a "well placed source".

Yeah right !

Victor

I wouldn't put too much store in a number that is rounded off to the nearest €100m.

Of course IAWS have been building a share of NTR for some time. Paying a certain price for a batch of shares that gets them into a strategic position, while nominally increaseing the value of the company, doesn't necessarily value of the company to the extrapolated figure.

Paying €1m for the last 10% of a company when you own 90%, doesn't mean you attach a value of €10m to the company, merely that the last 10% in worth paying €1m for. There are strategic points at 15%, 30%, 50% and 80% where the rules of share buying change.

ishmael whale

You've gorra have a laff.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1475958&issue_id=13053
Ray to make day of 600 toll drivers

Tuesday September 27th 2005
AROUND 600 motorists may be only too glad to queue behind Dubliner Ray Brennan when he drives up to the traffic-clogged Westlink toll bridge next Friday.
Instead of forking out the standard €1.80 toll charge for his car, Ray will be handing over €1,000 on condition that the next 600 motorists after him can drive through toll-free.
The money was the prize offered by the 'Spend Your SSIA.ie' website as part of a competition run by Dublin talk radio station Newstalk 106. Ballyfermot man Ray's plan to pay for hundreds of motorists to cruise through the toll bridge without paying was chosen by the radio station as the zaniest way of spending the prizemoney. "I'm passionate about the roads and hopefully this will be one less traffic jam for motorists," he said.
Westlink operator, National Toll Roads, confirmed that the unusual spend will allow around 600 motorists travelling south on the M50 to go through toll-free on Friday at around 4pm.
A spokesperson emphasised, however, that the barrier on the particular car-only lane which will be used will continue to operate - although Mr Brennan said he hopes to "shame" NTR into lifting it for the duration of the free ride. The company is to pass on the €1,000 to charity.

D'Peoples Voice

loyatemu wrote:

are you listening Bertie?? - you've had 8 years in govt and you've done f##k all
you haven't approved a single significant transport scheme for dublin in all that time!

I hate to make these things political in a commuting forum, but to be fair the government, more by accident than good planning in my view, have done something, nothing for them to gloat over it must be said, but something.

they have increased the number of bus lanes in South West and South East Dublin, and the number of people taking the bus to work has increased- as a result? I don't know, it is probably a coincidence.

they have increased the number of railcars on the Maynooth/Drogheda and Kildare Arrow routes, and alledgely the passengers numbers have also increased- as a result? I don't know, it is probably also a coincidence.Too early to speak of dart numbers since it's expansion

spent millions on updating the railway lines, probably to save them from being sued if there was a big accident no doubt, and the public outrage they face, definite loss at a general election, so they had to act

they deregulated the Taxi industry, and it's now easier to get a taxi on a Friday afternoon, definitely by accident, and it was more the courts than the government

they brought in a ban on one off housing for a while, leading to a situation where our towns became more densely populated and better suited to future public transport initiatives, this was definte an accidental achievement on their behalf, I'm sure they had an alterior motive

we have never had so many private bus companies on our roads, again definitely another accident on behalf of this government, they probably wanted to please some friends in the private sector

we also have lower air fares, indirectly and remotely due to the government not increasing the tax take on passenger tickets or landing charges

we also have one of the lowest rates of petrol prices in the old 15 member state EU, despite we being the furthest distance from many of the big exporting nations, politicans would claim this is because of our low excise duty, I'd say it's because they are afraid of the vested interest in the haulage industry

by improving the motorways, they have made it possible for bus companies to challenge Irish Rail, thereby ensuring competitive fares into the future by Irish Rail

so it's weird, they have done something positive, albeit probably for the wrong reasons initially.