Comment on the new M50 gantry signage

Andrew Duffy

There is a thread dealing with this but it's a bit swamped.

http://www.nra.ie/AboutUs/ContactInformation/SendUsYourComments/#d.en.1473

The NRA welcomes your comments on the new gantry style directional signage which is used on the M50 South Eastern Motorway.

...

Benster

Ok, I haven't seen the M50 gantries yet, but if they're anything like the ones on the M1 & M2 approaches to Belfast, they can only be a good thing. Finally something to clearly indicate to the average gormless M50 driver (who never clearly indicates) which lane to take to go where. More of 'em, I say.

Alun

Benster wrote:

Ok, I haven't seen the M50 gantries yet, but if they're anything like the ones on the M1 & M2 approaches to Belfast, they can only be a good thing. Finally something to clearly indicate to the average gormless M50 driver (who never clearly indicates) which lane to take to go where. More of 'em, I say.

But they're not, that's the whole point ...

Gantry signs = Good. The gantry signs they've put on the M50 = next to useless.

I, for one, have made use of the chance to tell them what I think of them.

Benster

Aha, right. Any pictures of them on the web yet? Looking on the NRA site, but nowt so far. I don't fancy driving all that way tight now either...

Another one-handed clap for the NRA then?

Alun

Try these for size ...

http://www.uk-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=18
http://www.uk-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=19

To people unfamiliar with the road, these signs imply that to turn off you have to be in lane 1, and that to carry on you must be in lane 2. Luckily most people travelling the road on a regular basis have since realised this isn't true, but in the beginning it was chaos with people suddenly pulling into lane 2 for no apparent reason.

daymobrew

Alun wrote:

Try these for size ...

http://www.uk-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=18
http://www.uk-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=19

To people unfamiliar with the road, these signs imply that to turn off you have to be in lane 1, and that to carry on you must be in lane 2. Luckily most people travelling the road on a regular basis have since realised this isn't true, but in the beginning it was chaos with people suddenly pulling into lane 2 for no apparent reason.

I can understand the confusion.

I complain when politicians take silly trips abroad to see how other countries do things. It seems than the NRA never looks at how other countries (successfully) does things and comes up with their own bad ideas. They should take the lazy approach - instead of coming up with their own unproven ideas they should simply copy good ones (and they can do that reading publications and phone/email).

I don't understand why they didn't just continue with something like http://www.uk-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=23 (I realise that this is from a 'N' road and it right before the junction but the message is clear). This is also quite clear: http://www.uk-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=19

If you look at the Staff Contact Details you'll see a lot of Project Managers. This could be interpreted as loads of people managing projects but no one actually doing them [yes, I know that they outsource all work].

Benster

Yes, I agree, those gantry signs are misleading. I looked first before reading you explanation and came to the wrong conclusion.

Add to that they had SO much space to use for larger signs but went with smaller ones and cluttered it up the Irish placenames too. Ok, I'm from the North and don't have the Irish names to contend with and I'm sure it has been debated before etc, etc, but it takes another second or so to decipher where you're supposed to be reading with that much text on a sign at once. Annnnywayyy...rant over.

Larger signs would have been better as they are much harder to miss as you cruise along at the same speed on motorways, you can't but see them. What they have there now could easily be subconsciously seen, then forgotten, until you wonder how far it is to your exit, then "oh bugger, here it is, SCUSEMECOMINGTHROUGH!!"

Victor

Alun wrote:

To people unfamiliar with the road, these signs imply that to turn off you have to be in lane 1, and that to carry on you must be in lane 2. Luckily most people travelling the road on a regular basis have since realised this isn't true, but in the beginning it was chaos with people suddenly pulling into lane 2 for no apparent reason.

But most people would be in lane 2 anyway. :eek:

One thought I did have about the gantries on the SRR in Cork, was to ensure the verticals aren't strike hazards.

Hagar

My favourite bit was

That's 500 metres, not miles :-) Note the solid yellow hard shoulder, typical of Irish motorways.

He forgot to mention the two bags of rubbish on the verge, sadly also typical of Irish motorways.

mackerski

daymobrew wrote:

This is also quite clear: http://www.uk-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=19

It's clear alright - unfortunately, it's clearly instructing you to do the wrong thing. Those signs tell you to use the overtaking lane unless exiting. That is the problem.

Dermot

daymobrew

mackerski wrote:

It's clear alright - unfortunately, it's clearly instructing you to do the wrong thing. Those signs tell you to use the overtaking lane unless exiting. That is the problem.

Dermot

Yes, image 19 is wrong. I cut-n-pasted the wrong link.
http://www.uk-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=20
This one tells you that there is an exit ahead.

Jamax

does Ireland has a standarized system for road signs?

In Spain we have a proper standard system for signs, depending on the type of road. All the roads have a name (N2, N345, L43, etc) and there are proper signs in every junction and on the motorways you have three big gantry signs BEFORE the exit.

I don't have pictures but the signs in Spain are much more clear. They are in similar to the Dutch ones, but I think even clearer.

The Irish gov. could just copy Spanish system and it will solve many problems.

mackerski

My experience of the Spanish system (in Andalucía) is that there are flaws, or at least, surprises. I found the signage to vary between excellent and downright confusing, but I must concede that there does appear to be standards behind it all.

See also: http://www.cbrd.co.uk/reference/international/spain.shtml

Dermot

Jamax

nice page. I would like to see one like that comparing irish signs vs Spanish or even vs UK .

It is true you can have some mix of old signs at some points, but there is a mandatory standard on road signs.

Do you have anything like that in Ireland? I think it is the first thing to have, to unify criteria. Then with a bit of common sense you could have proper signs, just take one european country and copy the system, there is no need to re-invent the wheel.

Of course this should be done in reasonible short time, which could be difficult in Ireland.

I am really amazed on how can you drive in this conditions, where you always get lost when you try to go to some place you haven't been before.

Why don't you put road signs with destinations BEFORE every junction? In motorways these signs are usually in the exit so you will miss it.
And in the countryside, why this tradition of placing the signs IN the junction, not BEFORE? Unless you stop to read them (usually the font is very very small) you will have to reverse and come back.
In the city and suburbs, only in some places you have signs. Usually you don't have any indication on with way you have to follow to the centre, even in the main streets. You will only find RAMPS signs everywhere. They were cheap and made millions of them?

And why is this tradition of placing the signs in round posts held with brackets? Then people can move the signs, and if you look around you will find tons of signs which are pointing in the wrong direction. This sometimes happens as well in the countryside, even the wind can move signs when time passes.

It seems this is only in ROI. I've been driving in the North, and you never get lost there. You can notice that when you come back from Belfast, just when you leave NI, the road quality changes, but the change in the signs is bigger. In the first junction you find, you'll see a cross junction sign, but no clue where you are going if you turn right or left.

This is a great country but it must improve in things like this. It's constructive criticsm. The only thing is that if some day this changes probably it will be in too much long time. You may be are one of the richest countries in Europe now, but your problems with public transport and roads will damage your economy in some time. It was a shock for me when I arrived last year, seeing the nearly third world public transport you have here, when you were supposed to be lot mor advanced than Spain.

If the politians are inepts and don't do anything, just protest, make strikes, vote to other ones...

fiachs

Yep there's a manditory standard on road signage, produced by the Dept. of the Enviroment. It's very detailed... Mostly motorway junction signage begins a kilometre before the junction.

Responsibility for the planning and supervision of signposting on the national road network is held by the National Roads Authority.

mackerski

fiachs wrote:

Yep there's a manditory standard on road signage, produced by the Dept. of the Enviroment. It's very detailed... Mostly motorway junction signage begins a kilometre before the junction.

Responsibility for the planning and supervision of signposting on the national road network is held by the National Roads Authority.

So how did we end up with the current mess on the SE Motorway? Does it stay silent on the actual nature of the signage to be used?

Dermot

Alun

So, how many of you have made use of the link in the original message and passed on your comments to the NRA? I certainly have, and I'd encourage all of you to do so. I haven't got an acknowledgement or reply yet, though

Victor

Alun wrote:

So, how many of you have made use of the link in the original message and passed on your comments to the NRA? I certainly have, and I'd encourage all of you to do so. I haven't got an acknowledgement or reply yet, though

This thread notified to the NRA.

Also see:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=211273
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=234632
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=234632
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=195158
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=252659
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=263438

SeanW

Benster wrote:

and cluttered it up the Irish placenames too. Ok, I'm from the North and don't have the Irish names to contend with

Ah, but don't you know that Irish is an Official Language of Ireland, and (proposed to be) an official language of the EU also :mad:

It doesn't matter that it's a completely useless relic from a different age ...

fiachs

mackerski wrote:

So how did we end up with the current mess on the SE Motorway? Does it stay silent on the actual nature of the signage to be used?

Dermot

I've got the document here so if you've any specific questions about the signage ask away... I'm not sure what you mean since I haven't been on the SE yet. In case you're asking about Gantry signs - yes there's a standard for them, maybe it just isn't very good. :rolleyes:

mackerski

fiachs wrote:

I've got the document here so if you've any specific questions about the signage ask away... I'm not sure what you mean since I haven't been on the SE yet. In case you're asking about Gantry signs - yes there's a standard for them, maybe it just isn't very good. :rolleyes:

Exhibit 1: These are get-in-lane signs used as advance warning of a standard fork (not lane drop) exit. I've no doubt they accord with the standard for appearance of a get-in-lane sign, but they don't seem to me to be employed in the right way. You'd think the standards would have something to say about this.

The other big evil on the SE motorway, and I don't have a picture of this, is a pair of identical, single-lane get-in-lane signs side-by-side instead of a wider sign with two arrows. This is just plain dangerous - why would you force drivers to read the same sign twice?

Another quirk, from the M50 Southbound approaching the N81 exit. British practice, which appears to have driven most of our motorway signing standards, says that you do not do patching on motorway signs, that the entire sign should be blue regardless of the class of road served by the exit. This is the norm on the Irish network, yet the fork sign in advance of this particular junction has a green patch for the exit destinations. What do the standards say on the subject of patching?

Dermot

Victor

fiachs wrote:

I've got the document here so if you've any specific questions about the signage ask away

Whats the document called?

fiachs

Man this would be easier if I could just scan the pages in!

The standards are called the "Traffic Signs Manual" originally published by the Dept. of the Enviroment in 1996. According to a Dáil Question in 2003 this was the version in use at the time and there was no review anticipated so I'm assuming that this is still the version in use.

I'll write in the stuff about gantry signs -

Gantry Signs on Motorways

Consideration may be given to the use of gantry signs where:
1. Lane indication is necessary for the appropriate destinations ahead.
2. The geometric configuration at the junction (e.g. horizontal or
vertical curve) requires it.
3. There are 3 traffic lanes or more in the one direction.

There are two types of gantry signs:
1. One for the "lane-drop" situation where the left lane of the approach
carriageway forms the off-slip lane and does not continue through
the junction.
2. One for the "non lane-drop" situation where the number of lanes on
the approach carriageway continue through the junction.

Non Lane-Drop
The non lane-drop sign is similar in design to standard stack type
signs. The assembly consists of two main signs, one above the other.
The lower sign with the ahead arrow should be centred over the main
running carriageway whilst the upper sign is offset so that the inclined
arrow is not directly above the lower sign.

Lane-Drop
Lane-Drop signs are also similar in design to stack type signs although
directional arrows are replaced by lane arrows located below the main
signs. Each route should be shown on a separate directional panel to
give the appearance of two panels side by side. These separate signs
should be aligned over the appropriate traffic lanes.

mackerski: the side-by-side signs are planned as you can see from the above...
There's no specific mention of if you should patch or not! Except at terminal junctions, then you patch.

Alun

In other words, on the section of the SE section of the M50 we're talking about, they've blatantly ignored their own guidelines !!! The junctions in question are "Non Lane-Drop", and they've used signs appropriate to a "Lane-Drop" situation!

spacetweek

Alun wrote:

In other words, on the section of the SE section of the M50 we're talking about, they've blatantly ignored their own guidelines !!! The junctions in question are "Non Lane-Drop", and they've used signs appropriate to a "Lane-Drop" situation!

Correct. The right thing to do would be to replace the two signs in:
http://www.uk-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=18
with a single sign similar to:
http://www.uk-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=17
except instead of the diagonal arrow, it should just say NEXT EXIT.