To race or not to race...

Iago

An observation about my play (feel free to use it against me on a table ) in the $25 STT's on PPP/VC, and to a lesser extent in MTT's on the same site.

I was playing an STT last night and we were down to the last 4 players, I was chip leader and on the button with 6.5K, UTG had 6K, SB had 2K and B had 3.5K.

The blinds were 200/400 and UTG folded, I raised to 1,200 and the SB pushed for the remaining 800. BB folded and I called.

I turned over 22 and SB turned over AJs. He hit an A on the flop to take the pot at which point the BB commented that it was "a hefty raise" for 22. I didn't think anything of it at the time, but afterwards I was analysing my play for the night and I realised that I have developed a tendancy to involve myself in races for chips during these games.

In the situation above, there was an element of taking the blinds down rather than anything else, but I was happy to give enough leeway for a call. A 3*BB is my standard raise once I get down to 6 players or less. If I get down to 4 players then it's either raise or fold unless I'm holding AA or KK which I play depending on circumstances. So that hand in particular doesn't bother me.

In general terms though I'm happy to call a raise or even push with any pp from 77 up. Mostly that's been dictated by the standard of play on the $25 tables. I find that you find yourself up against A2-A6s regularly at this level, I also find that players raise a lot out of position with marginal hands and a raise over the top of that will generally lead to them folding.

Overall I believe that a combination of the times I'm ahead (PP against one overcard) + The times I'm 50/50 (PP against two overcards) + the folding equity + The lucky times (when you outdraw a higher PP) > the times when you're behind and stay behind in this situation, at the level I'm playing at. Certainly in the short term, my results over the last 4-6 weeks when I have been adopting this policy would back that up.

My question to you all is twofold

1. Do you believe that long term this is a sustainable strategy or am I just experiencing a positive swing at present?

2. Are there any situations that you initially balked at that you find yourself employing regularly once you got used to a standard of play at a given level?


I'm just curious as up until recently I'd of folded low PP's more often than not and it's only through time and experience my mindset has changed. Have I improved my game or am I just fooling myself

I should clarify that I also base this on previous information gathered, stack size etc, like every other decision. [size=-12] and I accept no responsibility if you adopt anything I say and lose money as a result[/size]

Ste05

I must say that I find my self in the very same situation, I'm not sure how profitable it has been in the past for me, but as you have said, when it's down to the last 4 or so players in a STT I like to push with my PP. The way I look at it is, I am happy to take the blinds and in general that is what will happen, however if I'm called by 2 over cards then I still have a 50:50 chance to win the pot, and if I'm unlucky to run into an overpair then that's just poker and there's nothing you can do about it.

I like your analysis of the play and have to agree that I find myself in this situation more often than I like, but when the blinds are as high as you've described I don't like to wait for a better spot, I'll take my (more often than not) 50:50 chance and if I win it puts me in a great position to go on and win the tournament, but having said all that, if anyone has analysed their stats, on PokerTracker, etc. I'd love to know if this play is actually a profitable one long-term.

NickyOD

Iago wrote:

1. Do you believe that long term this is a sustainable strategy or am I just experiencing a positive swing at present?]

Yes, As chip leader you should keep applying pressure and you're supposed to race the shortstacks,

Iago wrote:

2. Are there any situations that you initially balked at that you find yourself employing regularly once you got used to a standard of play at a given level?]

I find it dificult in certain situations to decide whether or not I should reraise with AQ, AJ and sometimes KQ and AT. Its often much better than flat calling and I prefer to coming to the pot with a raise than limpnig or calling.

That's one seriously rambling post Iago.

Culchie

I've actually tried to eliminate this move from my game, I found it was getting me into a lot of trouble, especially from the button or BB.

You got to be chip leader by presumably playing the best poker.
The SB was always going to push either this hand or the next one with any type of high card, so with 22 it was always going to be a race for you, a 50/50 (at best)that brings in chance whereby you put 1/3 of your hard earned stack on the line.

The blinds and the clock are your friend in this game, I would have made the same move a while ago as chip leader, but now, I no longer feel the need to be table captain.
You got the large stack from your good play, I think by reducing it to a race, when this guys back is to the wall, you give him a lifeline.

RoundTower

Iago wrote:

I was playing an STT last night and we were down to the last 4 players, I was chip leader and on the button with 6.5K, UTG had 6K, SB had 2K and B had 3.5K.

The blinds were 200/400 and UTG folded, I raised to 1,200 and the SB pushed for the remaining 800.

What were you going to do if the BB pushed? You will be getting more than 2-1 on your money, so you shouldn't be folding.

And in that case why didn't you push instead of raising to 1200?

Iago

RoundTower wrote:

What were you going to do if the BB pushed? You will be getting more than 2-1 on your money, so you shouldn't be folding.

Well the BB was a fairly tight player, and he had folded 3 or 4 times to a similar raise during the game. So I guess if he'd pushed I'd of folded, reasoning being that I would have put him on a higher PP based on his previous play.

2-1 on your money is fine, but would you take it if you knew that your opponent had AA and you had 22?

And in that case why didn't you push instead of raising to 1200?

Pushing on the button in a 4 handed game for 6K to win 600 would have been seen as a sign of either weakness of hand or lack of understanding of the game, personally speaking I think pushing here would be a horrible move. with the raise I'm representing a strong hand and there is a very limited range of hands that the SB or BB would call with for two reasons,
1) I had played tight consistent poker all game, the last two hands I showed down after a similar raise where KK and AJs

2) on the bubble, you are less likely to call a raise from the chip leader, further reducing your hand selection. It's fine to make a move with KJo in this situation but would you call a bet in front of you?

Anyway that was my thinking on it, added to that the fact that had the BB flat called the 1200, I can afford to throw 1,000 at the flop even if I miss and get it wrong, he couldn't.

RoundTower

Iago wrote:

Well the BB was a fairly tight player, and he had folded 3 or 4 times to a similar raise during the game. So I guess if he'd pushed I'd of folded, reasoning being that I would have put him on a higher PP based on his previous play.

2-1 on your money is fine, but would you take it if you knew that your opponent had AA and you had 22?

He definitely wouldn't push without a higher PP? He'd push with 33-AA, but not with AK, AQ?

Pushing on the button in a 4 handed game for 6K to win 600 would have been seen as a sign of either weakness of hand or lack of understanding of the game

You're pushing for 3.5k, not 6k.

Anyway that was my thinking on it, added to that the fact that had the BB flat called the 1200, I can afford to throw 1,000 at the flop even if I miss and get it wrong, he couldn't.

More realistically if the BB calls he is intending to push on any flop, and you will be hard pressed to call. He is first to act.

Maybe I just have a completely different approach to the game or a 'lack of understanding of the game' but I just can't understand playing the hand this way.

Iago

RoundTower wrote:

You're pushing for 3.5k, not 6k.

Lets take the 3.5K then, there's 600 in the pot, you're 4 handed and the chip leader. You've only got the blinds to face, why would you put in an almost 6*BB raise in this position?

or if you were sitting in the blinds what would you think of this raise? Personally I'd be thinking that the raiser is holding a marginal hand, or worse a complete bluff. Why would you overbet the pot so much if you have a strong hand and you don't really need to steal the blinds?

In my (albeit limited) experience, a smaller raise which almost intices a call is much more likely to be holding a strong hand, and hoping to get you to call or bet back at them.

More realistically if the BB calls he is intending to push on any flop, and you will be hard pressed to call. He is first to act.

If the BB called, then he could still concievably get away from the flop as he would still be ahead of the SB in terms of chips, although I agree he is more likely to push either pre or post flop.

The point of the raise is to make that decision far harder for him, again if you push here my belief is that you are showing weakness rather than strength in your hand. That will bring him in with a much wider range of hands, imo.

Maybe I just have a completely different approach to the game or a 'lack of understanding of the game' but I just can't understand playing the hand this way.

It wasn't a personal attack on you, but I see this move happening all the time and I never understand why the player does it. The vast majority of the time I've seen this kind of move being called the initial raiser has a weak hand, and I wonder what's the point? When you're that commanding a position why commit yourself fully preflop when you don't need to?

we obviously have different styles of play, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Lafortezza

It's not really a total race since he could fold a hand like T3o, so at worst he has a pair, it's a race otherwise and sometimes he'll fold, which means you'll make a profit in the long run.

Waylander

I agree with Iago here. I do not see any point in risking 3500. I think his raise will have pretty much the same effect, and the push is only really likely to arouse suspicion more then anything else. At least with this raise you can still get away from the hand. The 800 was an autocall but if the big blind came back at you you can lay it down without too much damage. In these circumstances though I would generally try to avoid getting into this situation with deuces as I do not think you were a big enough chip leader to try bullying the table. I know UTG had folded but if the big blind did come back at you, you were down to 2nd CL and he would only have been a few hundred behind you.