Need advice...

Rozie

My bands stuff is here - http://www.myspace.com/moonweaver

Basically, there's two of us ****ing around making this music. We're both from Ennis, though I spend most my time in Limerick these days. I love it that way, but I think we'll need a live drummer or something sooner or later. And then maybe a bassist? I'm not sure. I think it would ruin a lot of the Chemistry. A drummer might not, a third input could be useful.

But we have so much planned for our music...

I'm not sure what to do with what we're doing. As early and rubbish our current recordings are, I think if we really sat down and did something with it, we'd have something good. We can only meet up at the weekends unfortunately.

My guitarist is without a guitar now too, which isn't helping. I don't know when we'll be able to have another proper jam. It really sucks, I miss when the two of us just went mad with our guitars.

I'm not sure what to do at all. I'm not sure how long we should wait until we play live. This is what happens when you improvise almost everything, I guess... I really think we could do something pretty and original, I just wish I knew how.

Nidge

You say everything's improvised but you also say you have songs...which is it? Songs are written sown improvisations, so you must either mean that all the songs you wrote were improvised, but then all songs are or that your songs have never been written down or recorded all you do for jamming is improvise. But as you said you have recordings...so my question is: what aspect is improvised?

If you need a "live" drummer then get one, if you are just two guitarists i strongly recommend you get a bassist aswell, they fill a whole gap, basically if you get a drummer, get a bassist too, or get neither. But you can't be two eejits standing there with two electrics, you should probably be an acoustic if you aren't going to get a drummer or bassist. You should only play live when you have a set of songs you are happy with and feel VERY comfortable playing. If you are going to play for people start small. If it's rock music you play then i strongly recommend you get more members. I don't you should think about changing the chemistry you currently have, without other members as a rock band you will get nowhere, if you are an acoustic band stay as you are.

Karl Hungus

Honestly... Get rid of that ****ing Fuzz Factory! It sounds sickening.

Fusion251

What the hell is that?

That music just sounds like messing to me tbh...

Fusion

Nidge

Holy Magbumboes only listened to the music now, well only the first song, i'm not going on after hearing that, no wonder you said improvised i'd be amazed if you can play that on command. There is no shape to that, the strings is the only comprehensible instrument on that and it's over dramatic and twiddly and fake cos it's on a keyboard. Without lyrics the song has no structure, the guitar work is unpredictable noodlage, that's a jam not a song.

turnback

sounds like drunken monkies. learn a new chord maybe.

POW!

Pure Pants.

Nidge

Have you guys any knowledge of music theory whatsoever?

Ardent

LMAO. You guys are going to go far.

Voyage Of Neptune aka Hey-man-I've-got-a-distortion-pedal-and-no-idea-how-to-play-guitar-but-listen-to -to-this!

HarryHoudini

Come on lads, ease off, the poster said himself the recordings are rubbish, some constructive criticism is fine but theres no need to berate him.

Nidge

HarryHoudini wrote:

Come on lads, ease off, the poster said himself the recordings are rubbish, some constructive criticism is fine but theres no need to berate him.

I'm genuinely asking if they know any music theory, then they'd have a knowledge of where to go with the music or be able to structure it better if they knew what was going on.

BossArky

Rozie wrote:

My guitarist is without a guitar now too, which isn't helping.

Can someone pick me up off the floor in the midst of my fit?

Rozie

For ****'s sake, there aren't any songs up their yet, I just threw up some Improv recordings I found, just to demonstrate the style, until we can record stuff. That's not much helping.
Danny is without his guitar, because he was using his Dad's guitar, and his own one has *broken* so he's either going to get it fixed or get a new one. He doesn't currently have the money to do so. Are we even more ridiculous now because guitars ****ing break?

My Fuzz Factory wasn't even used in those songs! Why does everyone want to kill it! If you'd have read you'd have known I was using a bassy sounding Turbo RAT to fill the low end.
The only thing that sounds like an FF in there is the Metal Zone - which you know all about.

I give up on you ****ers. I've had actual knowledgable guitarists say it shows promise, which was all I was looking for, I know the recordings themselves are ****. You're a pretentious bunch of **** who really couldn't pull anything more interesting out of their asses.

Thanks a lot asshats, I gave you warning it *was* only ****ing round with guitars, but I thought there were some good ideas with it, and now you make me feel like taking the whole ****ing thing down.
Not only that, there is another disclaimer on the page, saying the same. How ****ing dumb can you get?

Come back to me when you make something that isn't the same contrived metal/punk/"alt"rock/grunge bull****. Our recordings might be ****, but at least we *tried*. Did you even listen to Burning Ambition? That was all improv, and it was half decent. Oh, but it's got keyboards in it. That makes it ****. Right. Sorry for not using a gibson into a marshall with a non-existant rig.

I'm getting that cheap ass guitar, beacuse quite frankly, I don't hold any of your opinions in very high esteem right now.

Gods, no wonder we keep putting out tripe like westlife and little to make up for it. Bunch of prentious ***** like you lot are hardly any better.

Irish music scene is 99% pants.

This **** has kept me up hours after I should be in bed too, thanks a lot, I've been running through all my stuff looking for the flaws and not finding half the **** you post.

And don't accuse me of being overly sensitive to criticism. You know ****ing well what you did there and I don't feel like quoting every assheaded line to prove it to you.

Nidge

*Sings* Rock-a-by baby on the tree top,
when the wind blows the cradle will rock,
when the bow breaks the cradle will fall,
and down will come baby cradle and all.

Love that song, never fails to get one to sleep.

Rozie

Nidge wrote:

*Sings* Rock-a-by baby on the tree top,
when the wind blows the cradle will rock,
when the bow breaks the cradle will fall,
and down will come baby cradle and all.

Love that song.

I'm sorry I don't listen up to those standards. Perhaps if you removed the stick from your ass?

Forget I asked for help here. I thought guitargeek could be nasty, they are actually nice guys, in comparison anyway.

Nidge

I don't know, I think you are the rude one really. I gave you advice, suggested music theory, am merely joking with the lullaby and your replies are just filled with and obscenities.

You are overreacting, these are people's genuine reactions and they choose to communicate them with a smile on their faces (so to speak). If this is the reaction your music is getting that's that, you can improve. You are saying you aren't sensitive, you obviously are to a certain degree if you are staying up past your bedtime to check if these faults with your music exist. If people's negative opinions bother you that much then no, maybe you shouldn't put it on an internet site for all to hear yet.

People are entitled to their opinions and I am aware they didn't offer advice but you are overreacting, if you took yourself and your current recordings a little less seriously maybe these replies wouldn't seem so offensive. I've done recordings with my friends and looked back and laughed, and if others laughed at us too we wouldn't cry a river. You say they were improvisations? I'd be far more upset by people's reactions if they were songs I poured my heart and soul into.

Rozie

Nidge wrote:

I don't know, I think you are the rude one really. I gave you advice, suggested music theory, am merely joking with the lullaby and your replies are just filled with and obscenities.

You are overreacting, these are people's genuine reactions and they choose to communicate them with a smile on their faces (so to speak). If this is the reaction your music is getting that's that, you can improve. You are saying you aren't sensitive, you obviously are to a certain degree if you are staying up past your bedtime to check if these faults with your music exist. If people's negative opinions bother you that much then no, maybe you shouldn't put it on an internet site for all to hear yet.

People are entitled to their opinions and I am aware they didn't offer advice but you are overreacting, if you took yourself and your current recordings a little less seriously maybe these replies wouldn't seem so offensive. I've done recordings with my friends and looked back and laughed, and if others laughed at us too we wouldn't cry a river. You say they were improvisations? I'd be far more upset by people's reactions if they were songs I poured my heart and soul into.

That would be nice if people weren't being absolutely ****ing nasty over it. I know, and I knew for a fact people are going to try to write it off as "just joking around".

Yeah, I am sensitive. That doesn't mean I have to take these opinions seriously.

Look, people were ****ing nasty. What's the point in comments like this:

"sounds like drunken monkies. learn a new chord maybe."
"Can someone pick me up off the floor in the midst of my fit?"
"LMAO. You guys are going to go far.

Voyage Of Neptune aka Hey-man-I've-got-a-distortion-pedal-and-no-idea-how-to-play-guitar-but-listen-to -to-this!"

Those are INSULTS. INSULTS. People trying to be nasty.

Look, I can take honest criticism. But if someone is going to throw bull**** like that in my face, I'm prefectly entitled to explode back at them.

Do you honestly think I'm going to laugh at them if I was serious about something coming out of them? No. So please, at least spare me the bull****.

Nidge

Yeah well on seeing some of those comments (even though i did see them already) they aren't constructive, at the same time some people are only out to have a laugh and aren't arsed to give a helpful opinion, but if they set out to get an offended reaction out of you they certainly have. I suppose you wanted to show how useless you thought their replies were, but resting assured that you and other people you know believe that recordings have some merit should give you enough hope and confidence to let you hold back from a rant that sadly cos of board censoring only turns into a good day for the "*" (star) button. Alas there are many ways with dealing these things, and also different people willing to give useless or helpful advice.

feylya

Going off at people won't help. They gave their opinions which they are completely entitled too. If you take every harsh word to heart, you shouldn't play an instrument in public.

As for the songs, I couldn't even finish listening to the first one. There's a possibility of something good in there maybe but it's just too random to be called a song. It sounded like a guitar being dropped with a piano playing behind it. Perhaps reassess what you want to do and how to do it. Do you want to have atomospheric background music? You want want spacey stuff? Decide on that then get your sounds sorted out. Buying loads and loads of new gear won't suddenly make you a great player either so think twice before spending money.

Doctor J

FFS if you can't take criticism (or you can't take the remarks of those who don't know what constructive means) then don't look for opinions on your music, simple as that. Personally, I thought it was quite poor, sloppy playing and timekeeping, dreadfully recorded (and before going off on one let me say that if you need to make excuses about quality before you invite someone to listen to your music, then you ought to reconsider inviting) and I could get through about a minute and a half of each before I couldn't help but turn it off (and I can listen to Earth 2 quite happily - look it up and you'll see what I mean). What you need are songs. You need to know what it is you want to achieve, you need to structure your music (not rigidly but you need to have a clue where you're going next until you have the skill as musicians to transcend the mundane level you currently operate in), you need a theme which unites each individual piece and you need to practice your playing. Improvisation can be enthralling when preformed by a maestro, but this sounds like aimless meandering. This is teenage bedroom music, called so because that's where it comes from and that's where it should stay. You're getting a bad reaction because it's not a very appealing form of music to most and it isn't performed too well so it's even more.. ahem, 'selective'. Did you seriously expect someone was going to exclaim you had recorded your first number one? Abuse is perfectly natural, as is good natured piss taking. If this is the path you want to follow then expect a lot more vitriol, especially in a live environment, should you choose to take that step.

You could do something interesting with this, definitely, but you need to do an awful lot of work first. Check out bands who are already doing this type of thing, Earth being one example. I'd also suggest you try to be a bit more receptive to everyone's outbursts, even the entirely negative ones. Don't have a freak out at someone when they express themselves.

Nidge

Doctor J wrote:

FFS if you can't take criticism (or you can't take the remarks of those who don't know what constructive means) then don't look for opinions on your music, simple as that. Personally, I thought it was quite poor, sloppy playing and timekeeping, dreadfully recorded (and before going off on one let me say that if you need to make excuses about quality before you invite someone to listen to your music, then you ought to reconsider inviting) and I could get through about a minute and a half of each before I couldn't help but turn it off (and I can listen to Earth 2 quite happily - look it up and you'll see what I mean). What you need are songs. You need to know what it is you want to achieve, you need to structure your music (not rigidly but you need to have a clue where you're going next until you have the skill as musicians to transcend the mundane level you currently operate in), you need a theme which unites each individual piece and you need to practice your playing. Improvisation can be enthralling when preformed by a maestro, but this sounds like aimless meandering. This is teenage bedroom music, called so because that's where it comes from and that's where it should stay. You're getting a bad reaction because it's not a very appealing form of music to most and it isn't performed too well so it's even more.. ahem, 'selective'. Did you seriously expect someone was going to exclaim you had recorded your first number one? Abuse is perfectly natural, as is good natured piss taking. If this is the path you want to follow then expect a lot more vitriol, especially in a live environment, should you choose to take that step.

You could do something interesting with this, definitely, but you need to do an awful lot of work first. Check out bands who are already doing this type of thing, Earth being one example. I'd also suggest you try to be a bit more receptive to everyone's outbursts, even the entirely negative ones. Don't have a freak out at someone when they express themselves.

Herediddly, here.

Rozie

For the last ****ing time, there's a difference between criticism and **** flinging. That was **** flinging. If that isn't **** flinging, what *is*? Criticism shouldn't be seen as to tear into person's soul, if you're not going to make a productive comment or something that isn't utterly pointless, then don't bother.

feylya

The only difference between criticism and "**** flinging" as you put it is how you interpret it.

Rozie

.

feylya

Ah! I never said "constructive"! I said criticism. Not all criticism is constructive.

OutlawBlues

woah woah woah hold up there,
feylya,
i think you need to get your priorities straight.
if you think
"sounds like drunken monkeys, learn a new chord maybe" is critiscism,
man your way off.
no matter how you interpret it, that ain't critisicm.

and rozie, i know how your feeling, but i do think you need to calm down.
best thing is to just ignore them
there all probably hoping for your reaction, and you satisified them, you know?

feylya

OutlawBlues, I understand what you're saying. What I'm trying to say is try and get something useful from any comments you receive. Rozie put his music on the internet looking for advice. He got some comments that he didn't like. That's part of putting your music out there. I'm sure he'd hate it a whole lot more if he got a bottle in the middle of the head while playing that stuff live.

Giblet

Rozie's ass moderated.

Giblet

Learn how to play your instruments and you will sound better.

Obvious? You'd think so.

Bungalow Bill

I kinda like the piano one, but it gets awfully tiresome. The heavier stuff is quite difficult to listen to tbh. But saying that I can't listen to any songs with distortion/fuzz that heavy.

Yeah you obviously aren't restricted to anything in terms of idea-making so use it to your advantage. Find a good singer and let the music give him/her room to breathe. Try settle on a number of coherent ideas that your songs can be based around instead of throwing loads of ideas at the listener as they will not be able to remember anything that they like.

Go back to basics maybe and the originality that you staunchly claim to have will shine through.

LundiMardi

Rozie, if you can't take critisicm, be it contructive or other wise, then stop playing guitar NOW!!

The tracks are just not good, but it's not as if you've been playing for 15 years, you're just a beginner, it's understandible. You probably think it sounds ok, that's because your ears don't know any different. Seriously, make sure to keep a copy of these tracks, and listen to them in 6 months and you'll know what i mean.

Don't improvise, you just don't know how to, you don't seem to know any theory at all, you NEED this to be able to improvise at all. You can't bull **** your way through improvisation.

Get a teacher, they can teach you about chord structure, the CAGED sequence, keys, modes, scales etc etc. For instance, do you know what key the D Dorian mode is in? Do you know how to find out what key it is in? It sounds weird but it's not hard and eventually you can improvise to your hearts content. It will take A LOT of time but you'll get there.

BUT, if you can't take any kind of critisicm then just stop now.

Rozie

Learn how to play your instruments and you will sound better.

Obvious? You'd think so.

Actually, to be fair, I said from the start these were nothing more than two people messing around in a jam I never said "Whoa, this is our finished music, isn't it awesome?"
The mp3s I put up nowhere near reperesent the musical ability of either of us, and I wasn't saying they were good and asking for criticism.

I can play guitar. I've been playing on and off for about 4 1/2 years, Danny for a little less but with less off periods, I'm not that experieced since
I went through "off" periods, but I'm no beginner either. The *band* however, is a beginner. We've only had
4 or 5 proper Jam sessions, and little out of that. We're starting out. I put up the Myspace to get
ideas more than anything. Not for people to flame me

I kinda like the piano one and but IT gets awfully tiresome. The heavier stuff is quite difficult to listen to tbh. But saying that I can't listen to any songs with distortion/fuzz that heavy.

Yeah you obviously aren't restricted to anything in terms of idea-making so use IT to your advantage. Find a good singer and let the music give him/her room to breathe. Try settle on a number of coherent ideas that your songs can be based around instead of throwing loads of ideas at the listener as they will not be able to remember anything that they like.

Go back to basics maybe and the originality that you staunchly claim to have will shine through.

This sounds like actual advice rather than flaming. Thank you.

Rozie, if you can't take critisicm and be IT contructive or other wise and then stop playing guitar NOW! !

I can take criticism. The problem was, that wasn't criticism, and I wasn't even asking for criticism. Anyone can tell the difference, and I posted what happened here
on another guitar forum, and others seemed to agree.

The tracks are just not good and but it's not as if you've been playing for 15 years and you're just a beginner and it's understandible.

You probably think IT sounds ok and that's because your ears don't know any different.

No, it does. I can tell bits where I "go off", I just accept the reasons why that happened. And other times bits where it "goes off"
just isn't appealling to your ears, becuase you haven't been exposed to the type of influences we have, mostly sticking to the
mainstream rock.

Yes, it is understandable though. Which is exactly why I didn't need those comments.

Seriously, make sure to keep a copy of these tracks and listen to them in 6 months and you'll know what i mean.

I can tell there are problems with them now. Just nowhere *near* the amount people(bizarely, only people on this forum) are finding with them. With some editting and drums,
they'd sound a bit better. Drums make it easy to keep in time. We'll be using a drum machine anymore to keep in time.

Why is it that people on more open minded boards take to it more? Possibly because most of you stick(perhaps through no fault of your own but the lack lustre state of Irish music) to mainstream music, and few
of you know or appreciate who Daniel Ash was, one of my biggest guitaring influences? I have a lot of alt rock, but also a lot
of obscure 80s music on my side, Danny has a lot of weird bands, especially metal ones, on his side. It's not going to be to
everyone's taste. We're working on our own style before we work on making it more palatable for everyone. Though we do
want it to be accessible, but only in a way that opens people up to new types of music, and fusions of styles not done before.

I had an expert musician, who's been around in the musician look at my music. This guy knows Dream Theater. He said they showed
a lot of promise. I'm sorry, but I'm going to listen to him over people who can't get over the fact that these were just
jamming sessions that I believed showed the primitive aspects of the style we hope to achieve.

Don't improvise and you just don't know how to and you don't seem to know any theory at all

HOLD IT! Yes, we do know theory, it may come as a shock, but we do. We may have many problems, but knowing theory is not the main one
by a long shot. Perhaps putting it into practice is, but knowing it isn't.
If I didn't know theory, how would I honestly have done Burning Ambition? Or been able to do that solo in Crocodile? It might not sound nice to
you, but it's still on a scale, whether you like it or not. Danny's rythm guitaring there was a little unpredictable, so I might not
have used the right "resting" notes and such, but it still sounds fine to me.

But yeah, if we wrote songs properly, since we're both capable musicians, there's no reason why they shouldn't sound good. Voyage of
Neptune is actually a song we're working on - but it's obviously nowhere near finished, which is why I took it down when I realised
quite how much it shouldn't have been there, I just really love some of the stuff about it.
And what was that person saying "OMG VOYAGE OF NEPTUNE AKA LOOK AT ME I HAVE A DISTORTION PEDAL BUT CAN'T PLAY GUITAR" - what the hell?
Someone doesn't even recognise a Flanger then, because that's the only "look at me" type thing in it - and that's an issue we've since
worked down as we're using a ridiculously expensive Phaser instead which is far more transparent and guitar-like sounding.

Luckily - Yay! - I found a version of Voyage of Neptune on my Harddrive that didn't have the godsawful timing problems. There are other problems though, I may have to layer another guitar over it. I'll replace "running" with it, I think. Or the Piano solo.

and you NEED this to be able to improvise at all. You can't bull **** your way through improvisation.

They're jamming sessions. I said from the start that's what they are., two guys(one a girl) ****ing around with guitars. They're not masterpieces.

Get a teacher and they can teach you about chord structure and the CAGED sequence,

I know how to construct chords, for smegs sake. I know a second has that "left open" sound(Asus2 is one of my favourite chords), a third is what
defines if a chord is major or minor, 7ths, depending of the scale, are similiar to seconds, or have that "out of tune" sound when the last note
is a half step below the root note instead of a full step, that's used a lot in metal songs. Fifths are powerchords, as
they sound very harmonic and extend the sound of the root note rather than giving it a specific feeling. I know all those. You can
see most of those basic structures playing the intro riff to the Offsprings 'Kids.

We don't even *use* chords in those recordings except in the keyboard ones, and I just
did that from feeling - and it worked out better than some of the other recordings. Considering I haven't been playing keys that long,
it's to be expected.

All we need is more practice to "get it together", nothing more. What I was asking for advice was how to go about writing songs, as while we have a certain style to everyone, we still haven't quite sussed out what is it yet. Maybe
practice is the answer for that too, and what to do about the strucutre of the band in general. I wasn't asking for people to comment
on how bad the timing or recording issues were.

keys,

... yes. Not terribly hard if you know scales, is it?

modes

Danny knows modes, I tried to learn them and found them pointless, and just there for people who REALLY need more theory to learn. Danny agreed
with me. Yes,
I know how they're useful, but I find them overly confusing and limiting and it's just easy to do things by ear in the end. It's not something
I need to care about until we do have some songs down and start improvising seriously again.

Theory is a guideline, not an absolute fact. If people are thinking of quoting me on this saying "OMG THAT IS SO WRONG",
then you really need to expand your musical horizons.
Theory is so messed up, it falls back into itself and things that go against theory become part of theory - using anything Chromatic, for
instance. Technically, the intro to "Battery" *should* be wrong, but because something else says it isn't, it isn't. It's all terribly
confusing. At the end of the day, it's best to go with your ear, just using theory as a base.

and scales etc etc.

I don't get that. I can tell if something is Chromatic, and those recordings are *not* Chromatic. They do keep to a scale. Everytime we Jam,
one of us calls out a scale. We use Am the most lately. I know scales. I don't know where you got the impressions I didn't.
Old Blind Crocodile is on a strange scale, or at least a strange use of a non major/minor scale. I suggest that it is perhaps your fault
and not mind for not recognising. There may be some minor Chromatic parts thrown in to add to the strange feel of the song, but for the most
part it is diatonic, I believe Old Blind Crocodile may not be, I think it may have added in 1 extra note. We play a variation of a Blues
scale a lot of the time, just say it normally goes E G A A# B D D# E, we add in an F# too. Danny's idea. Though I once wrote a song like
that by accident. I think there's some RATM songs that use it, too, could be wrong.

Rozie

For instance and do you know what key the D Dorian mode is in?

I don't really care for modes, as I said. I learned off Dorian modes, and Mixalodian modes, and decided they weren't of use to me, and I could
find it on my own. Yes, I know what they are. They're different shapes to scales(as I see them), going from a different root note in the same
scale, usually used when soloing against slower chord progressions to "keep" with the chord(though really, if the riffs been played enough
times I'll probably know the root note and be able to use different "modes" anyway, without knowing the name, it's not difficult).
I just don't think modes would do anything terribly great for our music - yes, maybe for the improv, but these *were* just ****ing about Jams,
you have to remember. I'm personally quite proud of Burning Ambition, but still recognise some of it's flaws, because I've only being playing
keys seriously for about 4 months. A little more impressive now, perhaps?

Theory doesn't make good music. Feeling does. Theory is just what keeps you from ****ing up and everything sounding off, but sometimes sounding
off can be part of the song itself. Besides, if any of you have ever enjoyed a Nirvana track, you're already
hypocrites.

Though I believe D Dorian is in C major, since Dorian starts from the second note? Unless I'm getting them mixed up again.

Do you know how to find out what key IT is in? It sounds weird but it's not hard and eventually you can improvise to your hearts content. It will take A LOT of time but you'll get there.

Yeah, we're closer to that then you think. We really just need to get some few solid practice sessions, and for me to put more
chord theory into practice, I'm a little shy about that, always afraid I'll get something wrong.
The main things we need are a drum machine, and maybe Danny to not be stoned the whole time. Or maybe that
helps somehow. I don't know.

Danny definitely knows how to find out what Key it's in. If I have an instrument, I should be able to find it in not very long at all.


Quite frankly, as with the instrument topic, you don't have a ****ing clue what you're talking about. I'm sad to find that my own country isn't
a viable audience to play my music in - then again, all you people insist on calling me *HE* still, despite having a female name and quite
obviously identifying as a female. I'd personally rather someone say "girls can't play guitar and that's why you suck" :P

I am a decent musician. Unfortunately, our band is as young as **** and these are jams which are not representive of technical ability, only
style. I posted them in that state because I *thought* people would be mature enough to comment on aspects other than timing issues and
supposed lack of theory knowledge.

I think you're the ones that need to get over yourselves, and stop throwing insults at something different, please.

Giblet

I'm going to close this unless you want to keep it open.

Rozie

Probably best to close it...