Is there a line to be crossed?

Culchie

I don't want to come accross as some sort of champion of morals, but I just wonder is there a line that is when it is crossed, that someone (maybe from a casino) should have a word with someone who is out of their depth and simply sitting down at the wrong game.

I was in the Merrion last night, and there was a cash game of Omaha going on, and wow, there were some big pots in play, I'm guessing €500 would have been an average pot.

There was this young lad, who I know to be a poor Hold Em player, make that very poor, but he was peeling off the €50 notes from his pocket like it was confetti. In the space of the 15 mins or so I was watching, easily lost €750 himself.

Question .... like in a pub when a guy has had too much to drink, should the dealer or floor manager maybe take this guy to one side and give him a little friendly advice.....i.e Kop On ?

Don't get me wrong, if I'm a player at the table and benefiting from this, I'm asking the question from the casino/moral angle.....for me an onlooker, it wasn't a pretty sight.

ionapaul

Tough question to answer. Seeing as the casino itself isn't benefitting hugely from his lack of discipline / control or overestimation of his abilities (unlike someone playing for the same stakes at the blackjack or baccarat tables), I am not sure they have any part, certainly on an official level, trying to warn him off. If he was drunk, that's a different matter. But how are any of us to know if he can or can't afford to lose the money, and even if he can't, if he is an adult and is not drunk, should we even say anything? I see people 'waste' (IMHO) money on cars too expensive for them or houses too big for their needs, but I wouldn't say anything to stop them, it is their decision. A libertarian viewpoint on this might be that the decision to gamble is his, and interfering in any way with his right to gamble his own money is immoral in itself! A more conservative viewpoint might be that stepping in and saving him from his own bad judgement would be the moral thing to do.

careca

Its a good question that I reckon will start a lively debate.

Personally I don't think the dealer or floor manager can intervene. The other players would go beserk and most probably play elsewhere. If it happened on a regular basis the management could have a quiet/friendly word, but not when the player is at the table (this actually happened to a mate of mine who was going through a very bad losing period some time ago).

Course the other thing is, we don't know the persons finance. The fact the he is a bad player may mean very little, if he's also a millionaire. If it was Paris Hilton trying to learn, would we give a sh_it ?

biteme

Personnaly I don't think it's up to the casino to say it to the person that they are out of there depth. I think it's your own responsiblity to know when your out of your depth. The casino shouldn't have to baby sit every player. It's different if its a friend or someone you know and you see them playing out of their depth. Then I think you should say it to them that you don't think they are playing at the right level. I've had someone say this to me after thinking they had seen me play in a cash game where I would of been out of my depth.

So basically I don't think it should be up to the casino. They are a business and shouldn't be asked to intervene in something thats creating business and profit for them. It should be left up to the punters to decide if they are out of there depth and left to the club to provide the games.

NickyOD

Culchie wrote:

There was this young lad, who I know to be a poor Hold Em player, make that very poor, but he was peeling off the €50 notes from his pocket like it was confetti

You know him better than I do but if he had that kind of money on him then its unlikely he's borrowing from the bank to fund his habits. He's probably got plenty of money and like most young people has a fixed amount of money to spend/lose. If he doesn't blow it in the Merrion he'll spend it elsewhere. If I knew that losing the money would hurt the guy seriously financially and he had a real problem I certainly wouldn't feel very proud of taking it from him and take him aside for a word, but for the most part I don't realy have any sympathy for most of the very young players I see blowing a lot of money because they are much better off than I was when I was as a student or even just 5 years ago. I saw something similar when known pro in the fitz basically cleaned this guy out. (Once on a tough beat JJ V AA. Set over set on the flop) The guy said he had just finished his exams. When I was that age I was working part time for £80 a week and was lucky to go out with more than £50 in my pocket, and here is this kid in a casino at 3 in the morning with more than $500 in his wallet, so in that case I don't have any symapthy, but for someone with a family or is borrowing to fund his problem then that's an entirely different situation and I think its' in the casino's best interest to protect those kind of people. It's not an image they should want.

pokertroll

Who was the guy in question? was he in his mid 20s with a New Zealand accent? If so, this guy has more money than sense and is apparently dropping about 20k per week upstairs on the black jack tables so he wouldn't worry too much about a mere 750 euros

Culchie

No, wasn't him, but he would be someone from foreign shores alright.


Seems like the Merrion must be doing well though, alot of action !

ionapaul

OT but does anyone know how these college students have SOOOOO much disposable cash? I hesitate to say disposable income as I'm sure they are not working! I was in college in Galway and no-one had that sort of money to throw around, but Galway is a small place compared to Dublin. That said, I was in college in UC Berkeley for a year and despite hanging out with Californians with very wealthy parents, no-one there dropped cash like I see similarly aged young people do in Dublin these days. Do the D4 parents really give their kids hundreds in pocket money each week? It really blows my mind...I'm also quite envious of that lifestyle! Back on topic now...:)

Culchie

ionapaul wrote:

OT but does anyone know how these college students have SOOOOO much disposable cash? I hesitate to say disposable income as I'm sure they are not working! I was in college in Galway and no-one had that sort of money to throw around, but Galway is a small place compared to Dublin. That said, I was in college in UC Berkeley for a year and despite hanging out with Californians with very wealthy parents, no-one there dropped cash like I see similarly aged young people do in Dublin these days. Do the D4 parents really give their kids hundreds in pocket money each week? It really blows my mind...I'm also quite envious of that lifestyle! Back on topic now...:)

Well, it's not really OT, as I would guess that these fellah I'm talking about is a foreign student being bankrolled by Daddy, although definitely not Californian
To hell with it, I'm too moralistic ! Daddy is there for him.
His tough titties really isn't it ?


BTW These foreign students really seem to favour the Merrion.

NickyOD

pokertroll wrote:

this guy has more money than sense and is apparently dropping about 20k per week upstairs on the black jack tables

Good lord! These people have a sickness. That is so sad.

mewso

NickyOD wrote:

I don't realy have any sympathy for most of the very young players I see blowing a lot of money because they are much better off than I was when I was as a student or even just 5 years ago...When I was that age I was working part time for £80 a week and was lucky to go out with more than £50 in my pocket, and here is this kid in a casino at 3 in the morning with more than $500 in his wallet

And you try telling the young people of today that and they won't believe ye. (in best yorkshire accent).

Einstein

I agree with Biteme if it's a friend thats sitting at the table and you know that he doesn't have this kind of cash to be losing.
I also agree with Nicky...i think these people do have a sickness dropping 20K a week on blackjack, routlette or whatever. Being loaded doesn't mean you cant have a problem...

Dave

Surely the casino is under some obligation not to let a punter drop that kind of money on a regular basis. I know it's a business, and to tell someone who's basically handing over 20k a week to give your money away elsewhere would be a little stupid. But by law bars aren't allowed serve someone who is already intoxicated, so do the same rules apply to somone who has a gambling problem?

pokertroll

Dave wrote:

Surely the casino is under some obligation not to let a punter drop that kind of money on a regular basis. I know it's a business, and to tell someone who's basically handing over 20k a week to give your money away elsewhere would be a little stupid. But by law bars aren't allowed serve someone who is already intoxicated, so do the same rules apply to somone who has a gambling problem?

I did hear that he was barred from 2 other casinos in Dublin, accused of card counting. It is obviously risky for the casino also if a guy is betting that much money. Much of what I have said is hearsay so maybe he is getting the occasional winning sessions as well.

Culchie

pokertroll wrote:

I did hear that he was barred from 2 other casinos in Dublin, accused of card counting. It is obviously risky for the casino also if a guy is betting that much money. Much of what I have said is hearsay so maybe he is getting the occasional winning sessions as well.

Don't you just love it?

If he loses 20K a week, well and good. If he wins, he's counting cards.

NickyOD

musician wrote:

And you try telling the young people of today that and they won't believe ye. (in best yorkshire accent).

I know I really don't understand it. I mean my parents were never loaded by any means nor did I ever want for anything, but I worked part time since I was 16 and whatever money I got from my parents might be something like 20 quid here or there so I could have a night out or something. I mean I barely had enough to get drunk. I often overspent and had that 5th drink instead of 4 not realising I'd just spent my taxi money and would have to walk home in the rain. I must have been 22 when I first had more than €500 in my wallet. Students nowadays seem to be bloody loaded. Their parents must be literally giving them 100s every week. Some of them are better off than the average working person because they don't have the same expenses and then just waste it all on sex drugs and rock and roll, and gambling. It's sick.

NickyOD

Culchie wrote:

Don't you just love it?

If he loses 20K a week, well and good. If he wins, he's counting cards.

The trick if you can count cards is not to bet max and play for smaller stakes.

Lafortezza

No the casino floor manager shouldn't bring anyone aside for a quiet word. It's not up to them to decide who can 'afford' to play poker/blackjack/whatever in a casino. Do bookies get concerned about their most regular punters? Will a pub owner have a talk with the guys who prop up the bar from opening to closing?
Guys losing alot of money at the poker table means big pots and lots of action, which means lots of rake and tips.

As someone said the other players in the club would go ballistic if the guy losing thousands was taken aside and it was suggested to him to leave for his own good. We've all seen thousands lost in a hand on the big Omaha game in the fitz for instance. But to some of those players losing €5k in a night probably isn't more than one of us spening €100 on a night on the town, you just don't know.

ionapaul wrote:

OT but does anyone know how these college students have SOOOOO much disposable cash?

Through a couple of friends/acquaintances I know of a couple of guys younger than 20 who are regulars in the Fitz. The don't play the freerolls, one spends upwards of 500 a night on roulette, the other sits in the cash games and drops 500+ regularly. They are both D4/rugby/daddy's in 3 tribunals types.

DeVore

I know there have been times when a player has been barred for their own good or theres been a request from the family etc.
Its NOT good for casinos to have that sort of thing happening and ask any casino floor manager and they'll say the same thing. Its bad for business and bad marketing long term. It just takes one tabloid reporter to do an "exposé" on the scene from that angle and we're back to the 80's playing in smokey back rooms.

DeV.

Waylander

...without the smoke I think that each man really has to be responsible enough for himself in these situations. Noone else has the knowledge to know if he can afford what he is losing or not, and the casino are there to turn a profit so you can understand their reluctance to step in.

sickpuppy

without sounding like a complete prick and vulture if he wants to do his brains let him.I play alot of cash games and to make a profit u need these poor well off etc players in the game if there drunk even better playing in the merrion all last week a certain gentleman who will remain unamed has a wad of monkey notes in his wallet.Hes piss poor but he is filthy rich so him doing 2000 in the fifty game isent really hurting him.W hen i was losing my bollix when i strated i wasent told to stop but friends told me i was too loose so i learned the hard way.There has never been a better time too make a few quid from poker so let the poor players pay your bills holidays etc and lastly stop educating on the tables please.If a fish is givingh out hes losing dont tell him why hell come back and might even learn the game and be better.U want weak players in every game tourny or cash so dont help them become good players thank you.

Culchie

sickpuppy wrote:

without sounding like a complete prick and vulture if he wants to do his brains let him.I play alot of cash games and to make a profit u need these poor well off etc players in the game if there drunk even better playing in the merrion all last week a certain gentleman who will remain unamed has a wad of monkey notes in his wallet.Hes piss poor but he is filthy rich so him doing 2000 in the fifty game isent really hurting him.W hen i was losing my bollix when i strated i wasent told to stop but friends told me i was too loose so i learned the hard way.There has never been a better time too make a few quid from poker so let the poor players pay your bills holidays etc and lastly stop educating on the tables please.If a fish is givingh out hes losing dont tell him why hell come back and might even learn the game and be better.U want weak players in every game tourny or cash so dont help them become good players thank you.

Point taken Puppy, from a players point of view, I can't disagree. The question was probing the the question if there is a line that once crossed somebody should step in.

In this particular instance, I'd say Daddy is bankroling him, so fair game is my opinion. However if it was a brother of mine, or close friend, I'd like someone to step in when enough is obviously enough.

BrendanB

This is a bit of a morality is doing good by your friends thread?

To be honest, I don't entirely buy what has been construed as the 'pure libertarian' viewpoint on this, in that I believe there are elements to addiction which restrict the free choice which is an essential element of the underlying philosophical justification. Furthermore, freedom of speech and discussion doesn't necessarily restrict a person's liberty, and no-one has a right for their actions not to be criticised. I'd consider it perfectly legitimate for a player who sat into an Omaha game to be pulled aside for a quiet word, with the suggestion that he didn't play any more - this isn't a barring, merely encouraging him to make a knowledgable choice about how he wants to spend his money. If in awareness of other's opinions and advice he continues to play, then it's his own business, but there's nothing wrong with a recommendation to stop in my mind. I'd even go so far as to say that stopping someone playing for a night to force them to consider their choice isn't that significant a restriction of liberty.

More difficult is whether to bar someone with a gambling problem - and in fairness this is a far wider question of state involvement - it's not directly comparable to alcohol, in that the evidence of lack of capacity for choice is far more tenuous. My personal feeling is that there is no obligation to be prudent with your money, and while others may advise, they should not compel. It's legitimate for the state to penalise those who neglect other responsibilities (e.g. family, creditors), perhaps by preventing gambling, but this is for the protection of others rather than the individual concerned.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Is this guy the rather loud guy from Grenada who has the same first name as Pokertroll? (i won't mention his name outright to save his blushes from random perusers of this thread). Who always plays listening to music; and starts off in the tournaments and then goes onto the cash games?

Thought he was quite a good player in the tournaments - obviously not though...

NickyOD

Roundtower2 wrote:

Is this guy the rather loud guy from Grenada who has the same first name as Pokertroll? (i won't mention his name outright to save his blushes from random perusers of this thread)

LMFAO! Now even I know who he is.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

come on! there's loads of guys from Grenada over here!

NickyOD

Roundtower2 wrote:

come on! there's loads of guys from Grenada over here!

Do they all share the same the same first name?

DeVore

I agree with BrendanB by and large. I'd also add that if it was MY cardroom, I'd feel perfectly happy with barring someone I felt had a problem as I can't stop them gambling but I can make sure my conscience is clear. Finally, Sickpuppy, I'll educate who I like and talk to who I please on any table I fancy thanks very much... if that bothers you, *shrug*.

DeV.

Culchie

Sick puppy has a certain way with words hasn't he?

pokertroll

Roundtower2 wrote:

Is this guy the rather loud guy from Grenada who has the same first name as Pokertroll? (i won't mention his name outright to save his blushes from random perusers of this thread). Who always plays listening to music; and starts off in the tournaments and then goes onto the cash games?

Thought he was quite a good player in the tournaments - obviously not though...

That is the guy I was referring to alright!