Is dog breeding wrong

Pighead

I've had dogs for as long as I can remember, from german shepherds to king charles to border terriers! All have been rescue dogs apart from our current monster the border terrier Harney

When my momma moves to Oz me and the partner are thinking of getting a king charles as they are one of my favourite breed and are small enough for the house (the garden is quite small so wouldnt feel right having a larger dog.)

Anyway, I've been searching online and have come across a large amount of anomosity (sp) between people about dog breeding. Some are adamently against it and urge all people wanting dogs to get rescue dogs and others are adamently againest rescues for being too judgemental and not being sure of the temprament fox breeds.

So where do people stand on the dog issue. Its made me and my partner reassess what we want and we have contacted the king charles rescuers but have been searching for small rescue dogs too. It would seem frivolous to get a puppy when we could give a dog who needs a home a lovely little life.

Trojan

I've thought about this myself, but never read anything about it before. I love animals - I'm one of the few who can't choose between cats and dogs.

If a dog is bred, that means there's most likely been inbreeding, which often leads to less intelligence and more chance of genetic problems (e.g. lines of Alsations with bad hips). I like smart dogs, and free from bad genes so this would have a strong influence on my thinking. Maybe I'd look for a puppy in rescue (maybe just born there) who was mixed breed. But I'm not sure

Oh, and you're right, King Charles are really cool.

Kevin_rc_ie

If a dog is bred, that basically means there's been inbreeding,

are you trying to say that dog breeder mate brothers with sisters? what about the development of the pug? i assume some kind of toy dog was bred with a bulldog? would this be inbreeding? what's your definition of inbreeding trojan?

Kêrmêttê

I've had 3 King Charles Spaniels and they have to be the most friendliest dogs ever!
Pedigree dogs are prone to inbreeding though. Proof of this can be seen in the King Charles in the fact that their noses are squished into their faces and this can give them problems breathing... specially when they get over excited.
They also have problems with rhumatism and arthritus and therefore you can't let them live outside or let them sit about in damp fur.
They can be prone to heart problems... all 3 of our King Charles had heart trouble.
Also they have bad leg joints. They can easily dislocate their hips and knees when they jump and bounce about (I've seen a dislocated knee and it's not pretty).
These leg problems can subsequently lead to spinal problems too.
King Charles Spaniels tend not to have very long lives either... they average at about 6-10 yrs life expectancy... although there are always exceptional cases

And as for someone mentioning that pedigree inbred dogs being stupid... that is a fallacy. A dog is as intelligent as you allow it to be. If you stimulate any animal at an early age it will learn and develop an interest in learning more.
In my experience I've had immensely clever and incredibly stupid dogs who were both pedigrees and mutts. You just need to have the patience and give them the attention that they deserve.

With our pedigree dogs we found that they shared a common Great Great Grandparent... inbred! :eek:
This is really common with pedigree dogs because the breeders of a certain breed of dog all know each other and if one Kennel has a champion sire he's in demand to father dogs for other Kennels. Big money in that if you've a good champion. Kinda similar to the way stallions are used for breeding.

A lot of breeders are trying to introduce ways of preventing the health problems. For example, a few years ago the Kennel Club allowed the crossing of King Charles Spaniels with Pappions to try to get rid of the squished nose and give them a pointier face... therefore helping the breathing problems.
But a lot of the die-hard breeders would have no pollution of their breed of dogs and didn't want to do this.

Tis up to the individual themselves as far as I can see. The animals themselves don't know whats going on. If they are looked after properly, fed and played with and exercised they live happy lives. It's not their fault that their health has been weakened by certain people's obsession of "the perfect breed".

If you want a good natured, friendly, kid-safe dog... go for the King Charles.
They do take a lot of attention and care though.
I wouldn't be too hastey to go for a rescue King Charles unless you had a huge amount of time to devote to it. We rescued our first King Charles and it was so soft and nervous that it took us a very long time to get her back to health and allow her to trust us.

Good luck with the doggy search though... I'd love to have another King Charles meself

Pighead

My name ain't Trojan but i shall answer anyway.
In common usage, inbreeding refers to matings between close relatives, such as father to daughter, brother to sister, and half-brother to half sister. Planned breeding programs often use this strategy of breeding to concentrate desired genes in the breeding stock, and fix a "type", or "look".
Inbreeding is great and i think us humans should not frown upon it as we tend to do.Nothing wrong with it(and yes i do include hiumans in that too)

county

Pighead wrote:

My name ain't Trojan but i shall answer anyway.
In common usage, inbreeding refers to matings between close relatives, such as father to daughter, brother to sister, and half-brother to half sister. Planned breeding programs often use this strategy of breeding to concentrate desired genes in the breeding stock, and fix a "type", or "look".
Inbreeding is great and i think us humans should not frown upon it as we tend to do.Nothing wrong with it(and yes i do include hiumans in that too)

is that why your mother kicked you out of the house :rolleyes:

netwhizkid

I have known dogs to be "crossed" occasionaly i have a little female terrier and one time she had pomeranian pups and they were very pom like except for one who was a mongrel, he was my favourite although. The weiredest thing i've ever seen was a pomeranian/alsation cross however it happened was beyond me, but some tramp threw him into a field one day and i happened to find him, all alone like a ball of fuzz and he about 2 or 3weeks old. Anyway i found him a good home and he got bigger and is going strong now with the alertness of an alsation yet the charachteristics of a pomerinian.

Pighead

county wrote:

is that why your mother kicked you out of the house :rolleyes:

Eh no she kicked me out because i spilt coffee over her as you well know.No more off topicness please and definitely no more roll eyes at Pighead please. :mad:
Anyway back on topic inbreeding itself is neither bad nor good. The quality of the result depends entirely on what goes into the mating. Put good animals in, and good animals will uniformly come out. Put in any genetic weaknesses, and weak or deformed animals can result. Importantly, if good looking animals hiding genetic weaknesses are inbred, then these weaknesses will be exposed. For that reason, inbreeding should always be coupled with a program of selection for excellence in breed characteristics, viability, and fertility, with the strict culling of any animals that show weakness. Inbreeding should be used in moderation; a general guideline is to increase inbreeding coefficient by no more than 5% per generation.

Kare Bear

My aunt breeds corgis.The last litter all died though,11 of them.

Borzoi

Kêrmêtt&#234 wrote:

A lot of breeders are trying to introduce ways of preventing the health problems. For example, a few years ago the Kennel Club allowed the crossing of King Charles Spaniels with Pappions to try to get rid of the squished nose and give them a pointier face... therefore helping the breathing problems.
But a lot of the die-hard breeders would have no pollution of their breed of dogs and didn't want to do this.

The problem is not so much that animals are mated with brother/sister but that the gene pools for the breeds have been getting progresively smaller, and as anyone can testify small gene pools intensify both good and bad characteristics.

To give a case involving humans - the population of the Easter Island have a huge incidence of epilepsy compared to the average.

But for dogs, the problem lies with the breeders, the puppy farms, the Kennel clubs - basicly the people who make money from 'pure' bred animals

Sigma Force

There's a difference between breeding a dog and responsible breeding.
More and more these days it is getting difficult to tell the difference between a well bred dog with a wide gene pool and that has had all the proper tests/treatment/handling/socialisation etc and a pupy farmed or backyard breeder.

Documents can be froged, breeders can lie to get a few extra quid out of people who don't do even the basic researched, peoplea are too easily fooled these days and seem to think all that matters is how much you pay for the animal, if someone says the animal is 400 quid they think well it must be a good one, or if it's a pure bred it cannot have an faults.

The best thing to do when selecting a pure bred wether it's from a rescue or a breeder is to do your research on the breed first. Talk with vets and other owners of the breed. Find out all the traits and health issues/temprement etc.

Know what to look out for, never ever buy spur of the moment, from the side of the road or agree to meet a breeder somewhere.

Know the breed.
Know exactly how much that breed is worth for your own sake not for re selling.
Know what health issues to look out for
Temprement test the dog
Talk to the vet that has looked after the dog
Insist on seeing the mother and pups at the home of the breeder
If the father is around insist of seeing him
Use commen sense

If you select a pure bred dog that is in full health from a rescue it is only fiar you give the rescue the same money as you would give the breeder, a decent rescue will have given the animal all the same health checks and vaccinations etc as a breeder has and more besides.

Too many cowboy breeders out there, I personally wouldn't even bother with them.

Ireland is a very very greedy country, very self obsessed, it's all about how much you paid for your last purchase including animals.
As I said many think it's all about how much you paid for something and not the quality.

Arcadian

GPR has given some good advice.

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/index.php

The above link would be a good place to post your concerns re Cavaliers and to source a genuine breeder, ie someone who breeds for health and breed standard conformation.

boroughmal

quite honestly I cant see that breeders are a problem, they serve a need for people who want their dogs, I also do not see that a certain amount of inbreeding is a problem either if in doing so are giving the dog a good characteristic.
I see the problem in irresponsible pet ownership, and money making f---kers that give the trade a bad name. If you want a king charles, there was a couple on the Ia board that were rescued, you could have a look at them to see if they would suit you. Or you can take another persons ill treated or abandoned dog & try to give him a home. On the other hand I see no reason not to go to a breeder & pay for an animal who you would look after with great care, if you are a true animal lover. The choice is yours, In my opinion people allways chuck a dog out of the door or let him loose for the dogcatcher if he is a nuisance or not housetrained. Responsible owners sometimes have problems that are greater than dog ownership and have to let their dogs go to the pounds.Life is not about rights & wrongs its about being responsible for your actions if you are able, and if you are not able there are lots of great people out there who will help to save your best friend.

we have had king charles spaniels for years, the first one came from a vet in london, who we found out afterwards run a puppy farm.Although it cost a fortune in vet bills over the years, I loved it so much I cried for a day when I had to say goodbye due to heart problems, and it was me that decided she was better off to be put down. Thats responsible.
We now have two more, but to date they have no heart problems, no arthritus and no weak joints and they are both eight years old.
They were bought from a good breeder and the first one from a puppy farm.
They have allways had food in their bellies and a good walk here and there and lots of love and attention.
Thats what makes them good dogs and who gives a damn where they came from or who bred them