[July 16-17] Dublin Rifle Club Open Shoot

Sparks

Dublin Rifle Club Open Shoot
NTSA Registered Shoot

Event Details Below
Air Rifle Competition
Venue: UCD Rifle Club, Belfield, Dublin 4.
Date: Sunday 17th July
Detail Times: 10.00 am and 12.30pm. A ten shot final will take place at 2pm approx.
Entry Fee: €15
Entries to: Brendan Doherty – <mobile number snipped, PM sparks>
Booking Required!!
Other: ISSF Rules apply.


Small Bore Competition
Venue: Dublin Rifle Club, Ballyfolan, (Near Blessington).
Date: Saturday 16th July – 3P (3x40) Competition
Sunday 17th July – 50m Prone Competition
Detail Times: Available from JK Walsh, see below.
Entry Fee: €12 – 3P, €15 - Prone
Entries to: JK Walsh <phone numbers snipped, PM sparks>
Booking Required!!
Times allocated on a first come first served basis
Other: Detail format will be as follows:
3 Card Detail EXAMPLE – Detail start time: 9:30
9:10 Shooter places gear on firing point
9:20 Start preparation time
9:30 First 25 min card
9:55 Change targets (5 min max)
10:00 Second 25 min card
10:25 Change targets (5 min max)
10:30 Third 25 min card
10:55 Hand in last card
11:00 Shooter removes all gear from firing point
11:10 Next shooter places gear
11:20 Preparation time starts for next detail

phantom_lord

^ ^ ^

Where did that go on the ntsa website....

Sparks

I wouldn't be so cynical as to say that it was deleted because of the complaints that got posted on the topic on the NTSA site. Let's say it was just a technical hitch. Here's what was unfortunately deleted from the site:

Deliberately making it harder to enter r
Written by sparks on 2005-07-09 12:16:11
C'mon guys, what kind of plan is it to schedule two registered shoots (whose purpose is to determine who gets to represent Ireland internationally) on the same day in two different locations so that people have to choose which they're going to shoot in - and at least one family now has to choose between father competing in DRC or son competing in UCD, both of whom are expected to put in MQS scores as they've been doing in other competitions lately.

This is simply not right, gentlemen.

Written by Chairman on 2005-07-11 17:24:52
A decision was taken on the scheduling of this competition to minimise the difficulty to all members of the NTSA.
Research undertaken by the committee of Dublin Rifle Club showed that holding either the Air rifle or Prone rifle match on Saturday created more of a difficulty for the majority of NTSA members than holding both on Sunday, thereby allowing the maximum number of members, who wish to take part the ability to do so.

Yours in Sport.
Patrick O'Brien.
Chairman NTSA.

Written by sparks on 2005-07-11 19:43:04
Since the majority of shooters currently shooting competitive air rifle today are either members of WTSC or training with WTSC, does this mean that the NTSA or DRC's committee consulted with the coaches in WTSC to make that determination for a match which determines eligibility for membership in an Irish National Team for any particular match? Were EARC, DURC or UCDRC consulted, being the only other clubs currently shooting air rifle competitively?

WTSC does not include me!
Written by olympic on 2005-07-12 12:02:20
Sparks,
I am not a member or do I train with WTSC, but I am a good standing member of Dublin Rifle Club and I find your comments towards my clubs efforts to host its first Air rifle match slightly offensive. I just wish that you could give more taught before you consider putting pen to paper. Further to this, a few weeks ago I had the honor or representing DRC at an open competition in Gibraltar, where I had only 20 minutes between prone and an air rifle match 3 days in succession. Now if that was not a close call bewteen events, I sure do not know what is. On a final note, may I wish all entrants to our clubs open in all Olympic events in the rifle competitions that we shoot in Ireland, a most enjoyable and successful shoot.

Written by sparks on 2005-07-12 12:35:50Olympic,
True, you're not in WTSC, but you also happen to be the only one consistently at the firing line in any of the recent air rifle finals, who wasn't training with WTSC; hence the comments above. If DRC are seriously getting into Air Rifle past yourself (who's already been involved for over a decade), then brilliant. Honestly, the more the merrier. But this match arrangement stinks to high heaven of "errra, it's just air rifle, who cares about that?", and that's from my personal experience in working with the people involved over several years.

Examples; where's the coverage on this site or in the NTSA newsletter of the first ISSF pistol match held in Ireland on an open basis in 32 years, which was in WTSC a few months ago? Or doesn't air pistol count, despite it accounting for two olympic events? When was the last time the Chairman of the NTSA or the Vice-Chairman, both prominent DRC members, showed up out in WTSC for a registered shoot, or even for this year's Air Rifle Nationals - and hung around long enough to be interviewed by the press who were there, or to officiate at the presentation of prizes? Why don't the NTSA think that there's a problem with the size of the air rifle community when the test event had 16 entrants but 13 of them were there through WTSC (the Louth Pony Club are trained by WTSC)?

Stuff really is stinking in Denmark, olympic, I'm not writing this for fits and giggles. And I'm not writing it in public for fun either; it's just not listened to when there's a chance noone else will see it. And with the AGM pushed back from the traditional date in April to an indefinite date sometime in late september (and for no logical reason - I was told it was so that Discipline Coordinators could hold a National Championships, but right now the Air Rifle Coordinator has resigned in protest back in November, the Pistol&Fullbore Coordinator has been replaced but we've not seen any pistol or fullbore opens so far except for the Air Pistol match held by WTSC, and the Smallbore Coordinator has already run a Nationals last year), this is the only place to ask questions of the association. Unless you want to go to a wider forum like boards.ie, that is.

And as to the 20 minutes between matches, you and I both know that that's not the way to approach a match if at all possible (and it is possible here, what's happening next weekend for example?); and you didn't have to drive from DRC to UCD in less than an hour over bad roads in the middle of the wicklow hills during the time between matches in the Gibraltar Open Championship either. I'm not even sure you can drive that distance within the legal speed limits. And should we see any Northern Irish shooters coming to the match who are unfamiliar with the route, are you asking that they try to drive it in that space of time? Even some of our Southern Irish shooters don't know how to find DRC, I've been giving out directions on the phone to more than one person so far.

And this is the second registered shoot in a row to be run in a way not conducive to putting in the best performance shooters are capable of. Last time, 3P was cancelled for lack of entrants (shock, horror, people actually working on a friday!) and the entrant who had taken the time to get a day off for that match was told with only hours to go that it was cancelled; the 50m was changed from single-bull to 3-card with less than 24 hours notice; and the air rifle was the day after the prone match. There was a reason we had competitive seasons for air rifle and smallbore rifle - I didn't agree with the idea of hosting competitions on top of each other when it was first suggested and I still don't agree with it now. We just don't have enough people yet to justify it, all it will do is further put people off getting more competitive, and put off those already competitive from training harder, and drop scores in competition or hold them back from what they could be. Not to mention that for our juniors going to matches, we now have to find even more people who can supervise them, as required under the Code of Ethics for Children in Sport. And there aren't that many supervising people about to begin with!

Sparks

Written by username on 2005-07-15 22:03:33
I feel I must respond to an already drawn out frivolous complaint. To claim that the organisers "deliberately" set out to make life difficult for shooters is nothing short of a disgraceful remark. As an organiser, I take great offence to this. The competition is for shooters, and will be run by shooters, so why would we make it hard to enter?

I¿m also not sure why other clubs need consulting. Since UCD is hosting it, obviously they would have been consulted, and there are no DURC entrants either (as of yet). This is expected as students are rarely around during the summer. I cannot speak for EARC. Besides, the various clubs rarely consult on these matters anyway. Just another silly complaint!

From a practical point of view, only one competitor expresses an interest in competing in both disciplines, and at no point was the timing mentioned as a problem. Nor was any request made to change it (which could have been done if necessary). If any person does arrive late due to this, they will be accommodated. If you had bothered to inquire before you aired your opinion.

Also, to claim that one family will have to choose between father shooting in DRC and son shooting in UCD is a blatant lie! Father will be shooting in DRC and son will be shooting in UCD.

If you were so concerned about the situation, why didn¿t you just ring the organisers to air your concerns, rather than make ill informed, misleading comments?

Target shooting is a small community where most people know each other, and ridiculous bickering on such minor points serves noone! Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but what hope have we if this is what we are reduced to.

Written by sparks on 2005-07-16 16:08:56
Same old, same old, eh? Let's not ever complain about something that's wrong, that wouldn't be right. Let's not ever think that we might be able to do it better. Let's just keep our heads nice and deep in that lovely sand and forget the whole thing, right lads? After all, it's all the shooter's fault for not being dedicated enough that we're not winning medals, and it's the government's fault that the sport is hard to get into, and it's the council's fault that getting new ranges is hard, and it's the NRPAI's fault that we can't get more carding grants, and it's the lack of money's fault that we can't send our coaches or team managers off with our shooters in international competitions, and it's the lack of olmypic-class ranges in Ireland that we don't have shooters that can place outside the bottom 20 or 30 in a World Cup, right?
Yeah, right. And the ICPSA shotgun team doesn't have the gold medal from the World Championships tucked away in a drawer somewhere. Along with several gold and bronze medals for teams and individuals at World Cups and European Championships. And we've never seen the WTSC Juniors bring home any medals either. And we've never seen the Pony Club bring back medals either, have we? And noone minds that the ranges are miles off the beaten track, in the middle of nowhere in many cases, with basic facilities at best, right? And the lack of a published procedure for getting into the National Squad is just dandy, isn't it? And the way we keep spending money to send undertrained, underresourced, understaffed shooters off to World Cup matches without coaches or managers instead of building up the grass roots of the community and aiming at lower level competitions like the British Open, that's fine too, isn't it? And who really needs for there to be a qualified coach in every club? Or nationally owned equipment like equipment control gauges, or scoring machines, or that sort of stuff? Sure, isn't it good enough for a shooter to cut chunks off his boots when he gets to the match instead of months beforehand? And who cares that our national coach sees his shooters once a month for a few hours at best? I mean, if they were serious, wouldn't they be training on their own anyway? And why would a coach need to see that sort of thing?
And while we're on it, what's all this daftness about wanting to hang on to the hundred-odd trained shooters who graduate from the college clubs every year, or the hundreds leaving the pony club as they turn 21? Sure, and isn't it crowded enough out there already, without us bringing in that many shooters? And aren't they only bloody students anyway? What good are they, right? And as to this notion of telling people what the committees are talking about and deciding on, what kind of idiot wants that? Isn't it good enough for them that there are meetings and that the reasons why we can't do anything are fully laid out every month? Next thing, they'll actually be wanting to see stuff done or something, right?

Nah, much better to keep on the way we're going. Let's ignore the complaints alltogether. Let's ignore formal written complaints sent to the national committee by college clubs when the National Air Rifle Championships are moved to a date where the college clubs can't shoot them. Let's ignore requests from people who want to become accredited coaches because we didn't like them much a decade ago. Let's watch in silence as the average age of shooters climbs by a year every year, the number of shooters decreases year on year, and our ranges close around us. Let's not look at participation levels in matches, or the way that the scores seem to get stuck at various plateux - I mean, if we actually worked at it, we'd only end up like WTSC where the poor sods have to keep on training because their scores are actually getting up above the Minimum Qualifying Score for the Olympics! I mean, how can you enjoy a sport if you have to train for it, right?

More specifically:
As an organiser, I take great offence to this. The competition is for shooters, and will be run by shooters, so why would we make it hard to enter?
Beats me, but as someone who was looking forward to putting in a 570 in the air rifle match, I'm now quite offended that I can't shoot my match since I'd already agreed to spot for one of the .22 shooters. So the organiser is offended and competitors are offended. Great state of affairs that, very even-handed!

I feel I must respond to an already drawn out frivolous complaint.
That's why it's been made in public - I've seen personally over many years what happens to privately made complaints, whether written or verbal, formal or informal. They get dumped somewhere and ignored. At least now you're listening, I suppose that's an admirable step forward! I mean, if you hadn't listened at this point, we'd really have been in trouble!

I'm also not sure why other clubs need consulting.
Which is it? Do other clubs not need consulting, or was "Research undertaken by the committee of Dublin Rifle Club showed that holding either the Air rifle or Prone rifle match on Saturday created more of a difficulty for the majority of NTSA members than holding both on Sunday"???
Or, as often seems to be the case, was that "Research" a case of sitting round going "What's easiest for us?"?

This is expected as students are rarely around during the summer.
Is that why the National Air Rifle championships was moved to the summer over the specific formal written objection of DURC?

Also, to claim that one family will have to choose between father shooting in DRC and son shooting in UCD is a blatant lie! Father will be shooting in DRC and son will be shooting in UCD.
Father can now shoot in DRC while Son shoots in UCD because Mother is giving up her Sunday to go to be in UCD for Son and I will be in DRC to help Father, instead of being in UCD shooting against Son. It's got squat to do with the competition organisers.

If you were so concerned about the situation, why didn¿t you just ring the organisers to air your concerns, rather than make ill informed, misleading comments?
You answered your own question in the next line:
Target shooting is a small community where most people know each other

I know the organiser. And I know how complaints made privately are dealt with by him. And I'm not alone. And frankly, I don't have infinite energy that I can throw it away on making quiet comments or discrete suggestions with him any longer. If a nudge won't work, maybe public complaints will.
Well, it's either that, or else I do what the only three rifle shooters we've sent to the Olympics have done, and walk away from the NTSA in disgust.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but what hope have we if this is what we are reduced to.
I don't know JK, what are we reduced to when every shooter
out there has given up talking to head office quietly because
they know that they won't be listened to, and many are giving
up shooting competitively at all?

.

phantom_lord

Thanks Sparks

Sparks

From TargetShootingIreland.org:

Leinster Open
Contributed by DRC
Sunday, 17 July 2005

Results of the Leinster Open.

3 x 40 1st Declan Kelly.

Prone 1st Michael Walls.

Air rifle 1st Susan Cunningham.

Results of the 3 x 40 match.

1st Declan Kelly DRC

Prone, 97,98,97,97=389

Standing; 95,90,90,86=361

Kneeling; 87,93,93,94=367

Total 1117

2nd Daniel Fleming WTSC

Prone; 94,91,87,93=365

Standing; 53,68,61,59=241

Kneeling; 84,89,88,84=345

Total 951

3rd JK Walsh DRC

Prone; 94,87,94,92=367

Standing; 70,69,60,69=268

Kneeling; 69,70,62,74=275

Total 910

Results of the Prone Match.

M. Walls 99,95,99,100,98,98 =589

D. Kelly 98,96,98,98,96,98 =584

T. Cogan 92,95,96,99,99,97 =578

L. Fagan 96,98,96,96,94,97 =577

PJ Harding97,95,93,93,94,95 =567

N. West 93,95,98,92,93,95 =566

B O'Farrel 89,94,94,92,89,87 =545

JK Walsh 90,93,89,91,87,89 =539

D. Fleming80,84,90,90,90,94 =528

Results of the Air rifle Match.

Ms. S. Cunningham 573

D. Kelly 572

D. Fagan 570

R. Stapleton 566

Ms. N Murphy 563

R. Kane 554

P. O'Brien 546

Ms. C Russel 538

D. Fleming 537

Ms. E O'Hagan 536

M. Lynn 527

S. Flynn 516

J. Donoghue 507

J O'Hagan 506

Ms. P Cunningham 478

Dublin Rifle Club, would like to congratulate all of the competitors who competed in the match. Well done!

We will have full report and photos in the next couple of days.

DRC.

Sparks

Just the one photo, and not a brilliant one at that I'm afraid - the batteries were flat in the digital camera, so I was reduced to a cameraphone

It's Susan, Declan and Damien, warming up during preparation time in the Air Rifle finals on Sunday afternoon.