Dell Rip-Off

Dec4

Thinking of buying a new PC.. bought this mornings papers.. Dell Dimension 5100.. £672 stg (€972) on page 35 of Times, €1149 on P4 of glossy junk mail with Irish Indo...absolutely identical spec ( even had same value code one being UK, the other IE ). ( I can reduce that slightly on-line to €1089 )..However thats still a difference of €115. Obviously cheaper to build and transport to UK than to deliver down the road here.. and don't give me that crap about a few % difference in VAT rates.
Dell,IRL, hang your head in shame

jetsonx

Dell knows dam well the extra disposable income we have here in Irl at the moment. I would surmise that being the reason for price discrepency. That aside, I do think Dell offer value for money, relatively good quality parts go into them. Also,they seem to be pushing prices down all the time when there they have no obligation to it.Lets face it with the PC market here in Ireland is not exactly cut- throat - yet Dell seem to continue to lower the base price of thier cheapest PC.

zuma

Its cut throat enough if you buy your comps through, lets say UK retailers and ship them over.

If your company needs 100 computers....€100 markup ends up being a hell of a lot of money so buying outside Ireland and shipping is far cheaper.

Also anyone who knows enough about computer hardware and is able to build them just goes to online retaliers who source their products from the rest of europe saving you a SHÍT load!!!!

Havent bough anything over 30 for my computers in Irish retailers for years.

jor el

jetsonx wrote:

That aside, I do think Dell offer value for money....
....yet Dell seem to continue to lower the base price of thier cheapest PC.

Value for money, yeah right.

Just checked and compared two sililar systems. One from Dell and one self build from Komplett

Dell, current special offer in Home PCs on the website:
Celeron 2.6GHz
512M Ram
160G HD
16x DVD+/-RW
17" TFT
56k modem
speakers/keyboard/mouse
€1209 in total. This includes €70 off aswell and the price is reduced from €1339 to €1209 as another offer.


Komplett, no special just normal price:
* Intel Celeron D 320 2.4GHz PC533 Socket478, 256KB, BOXED w/fan
* Corsair Value S. PC3200 DDR-DIMM 512MBUnbuffered, Non-parity, 64Megx64, CL2.5
* EPoX EP-4PLAI-A, I848P, Socket-478, ATXATA/SATA, SC-DDR400, Sound, LAN, AGP8X
* PowerColor Radeon 9250 128MB DDR, 64bitAGP8X, ATI 9250,DVI-I,TV-Out,LowP,Retail
* Samsung SpinPoint P80 160GBIDE ATA/133 8MB 7200RPM
* NEC DVD recorder ND-3540A IDE Black OEM
* Antec SLK1650B Miditower, Blackw/350W PSU
* Trust Power Plus KeyboardEnglish, UK, PS/2, Retail
* Trust Ami Mouse 250S Optical3 button mouse, scroll, PS/2
* Acer 17" LCD AL1714MS TCO99 Monitor,Multimedia, Silver/Black, 8ms (NEW!!)
* Logitech X-120 Speakerset 2.0, 5W RMS
* Windows XP SP2 Home

Delivery is €20 with An Post or GLS.

€804.80 in total.

The biggest con with Dell is that they want €121 for an extra 256MB RAM, €108 for an extra 80G of hard disk space and €121 for the DVDRW. That's €350 for what costs less than €120 on Komplett. I would never buy Dell, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else do either.

Dec4

Exactly Jor El,
Dell get you every time on the "extras"...

Mr. Presentable

It really depends on what you want it for. If it's gaming or multimedia work, then you're right, Dell will burn you, but if you just want a drone for the office I don't believe you can beat this:

http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx?c=ie&cs=iebsdt1&id=dimen&l=en&s=bsd

Dimension for 309.00

parsi

But don't forget not everyone wants/or is able to build their pc - we might think it a trivial task but the vast majority of people aren't techies and want their pc to arrive in one single piece with one point of contact for support. The don't want a mountain of boxes with parts that they have to put together and nobody to call if it all goes wrong...

AARRRGH

parsi wrote:

But don't forget not everyone wants/or is able to build their pc - we might think it a trivial task but the vast majority of people aren't techies and want their pc to arrive in one single piece with one point of contact for support. The don't want a mountain of boxes with parts that they have to put together and nobody to call if it all goes wrong...

Yup. People are willing to pay extra to make their life easier.

This is why the "But Linux is free...?" argument will never work. People do not mind whatsoever paying extra for nice and easy Windows.

Our man in Havana

Dell are some rip-off artists. Take your €309 system. It really will cost you €433.18
They don't include VAT or Delivery @€;49.99+21% vat.

As they sell to domestic users are they allowed to quote headline rates excluding vat?

JohnC.

Bond-007 wrote:

Dell are some rip-off artists. Take your €309 system. It really will cost you €433.18
They don't include VAT or Delivery @€;49.99+21% vat.

As they sell to domestic users are they allowed to quote headline rates excluding vat?

They do quote VAT & delivery in the Home section of the site. That page is in the Small Business section of the site, where ex-VAT prices would be common for pretty much every company selling to business.

4Xcut

They charge more because they can its that simple. All companies do it. For example Ireland is the cheapest country in Europe to buy a car before tax because the companies know that price will soar above that of other nations. If they could they would charge us more but they can't. Dell can.

They are still the cheapest way of getting a quiet, stable, reliable pc that is ready to use within 20 minutes or so of hitting your doorstep. Going down the custom build road is a different option altogether. Dell offer the best deals for package pcs.

whiskeyman

I got a new Dell machine a few weeks ago - a 5100 Dimension.
When fully customised, my ideal machine was coming to around €1200.
I clicked on a different linked of a higher spec'd 5100, and customised that one... and my same machine came to €1000 on the nose.
A €200 difference just because I customised it off a different link!
With Dell, always customise and check a few ways on the internet - it's probably worth while phoning them and going through the system with a sales person to see if they hit the same price too.

LFCFan

jetsonx wrote:

relatively good quality parts go into them.

They build their own motherboards which act as a bottleneck for what otherwise would be some decent parts. It's like attaching a Ferrari's body and engine to a Punto's Chassis. It ain't gonna be as reliable or fast as it should be but on the surface looks like a good buy.

BrendanD

LFCFan wrote:

They build their own motherboards which act as a bottleneck for what otherwise would be some decent parts. It's like attaching a Ferrari's body and engine to a Punto's Chassis. It ain't gonna be as reliable or fast as it should be but on the surface looks like a good buy.

yes and also use a non standard power supply .try and upgrade it and you fry the board

Chavster

A bit of devils advocating coming on :P

To address the OP's point I believe that they adjust their prices to each national market (this is the same for all products made from all global companies afaik) they don't just have one price and convert it to different currencies. In Ireland they have less competition so can charge more. Simple as that. Prices in the US, for example, will be cheaper again for the same stuff.

The comment about Dell building there own mb's isn't true. Dell don't manufacture any components themselves.

Finally, non-standard parts make absolute business sense. It's a pain the arse for upgrading because it means you have to go to them to do it. But from a moneymaking viewpoint it's a very good decision.

MorningStar

Just another small point . Dell uses a lot of complex tax incentives for different markets too. Some countries don't charge vat on components so we might be charging 21% vat on parts for the PC that other countries charge nothing. Price pointing and market variences account for a lot too.

andy1249

Chavster wrote:

A bit of devils advocating coming on :P

To address the OP's point I believe that they adjust their prices to each national market (this is the same for all products made from all global companies afaik) they don't just have one price and convert it to different currencies. In Ireland they have less competition so can charge more. Simple as that. Prices in the US, for example, will be cheaper again for the same stuff.

The comment about Dell building there own mb's isn't true. Dell don't manufacture any components themselves.

Finally, non-standard parts make absolute business sense. It's a pain the arse for upgrading because it means you have to go to them to do it. But from a moneymaking viewpoint it's a very good decision.

Dell have custom boards built for their PC's by third party manufacturers , they have very good supply chain management and dont actually hold the stock , they have the third party manufacture with an option to buy , also the power supplies are not standard , and neither for that matter is their memory , any upgrade is not handled by dell but by a third party and they charge a fortune, you also get exactly what you ordered , so there is no option say , of buying a dell with onboard graphics and adding a nice card later , you will find if you order a pc with onboard graphics from dell there will be no AGP slot on the board , again a result of the custom made Motherboards , As someone else said on this thread , Dell are for non technical people only , having said that , putting a pc together is not hard , and it pays wads to learn a little !!

MrPudding

andy1249 wrote:

Dell have custom boards built for their PC's by third party manufacturers , they have very good supply chain management and dont actually hold the stock , they have the third party manufacture with an option to buy , also the power supplies are not standard , and neither for that matter is their memory , any upgrade is not handled by dell but by a third party and they charge a fortune, you also get exactly what you ordered , so there is no option say , of buying a dell with onboard graphics and adding a nice card later , you will find if you order a pc with onboard graphics from dell there will be no AGP slot on the board , again a result of the custom made Motherboards , As someone else said on this thread , Dell are for non technical people only , having said that , putting a pc together is not hard , and it pays wads to learn a little !!

I have built numerous PCs myself. I agree it is very easy and not particulary technical. The problems begin when something goes wrong. When you buy a system from HP or Dell you know where to go when you have a problem. I bought the parts for my last PC from 3 different suppliers. I can imagine a fairly non-technical person getting bounced from supplier to supplier. A lot of people consider this alone to be worth any extra you *may* spend in the first place. I will not be building my next PC myself as I do not believe it is eccomomical anymore, I also can't be arsed.

I have a friend that started a business in computer services. He stopped building and selling home PCs as he could not compete with Dell on price, even with trade price for parts and claiming VAT back.

On the subject on bits. As far as I know Dell will only use custom system boards where they need to, like other PC suppliers. Custom boards are more expensive and so are only used where they need to be, for example in the small form factor boxes or where they have a weird case.

Dell use normal memory same as anyone else, there is no "Dell" memory. As long as it is to the same spec you can source the memory whereever you want. They might not like it but there you are.

I am not sure about the no option to add a VGA card if you go for onboard initially. I would think that if you had a board with onboard graphics it would probably make it cheaper to not have an AGP bus but I cannot confirm whether or not this is the case. If it is I suppose it may be a reason.

When you order a system it will tell you what expansion slots are available. So I would think that if you were ordering a system with onboard graphics but thought you might want to upgrade, then you should probably check to make sure you had the appropriate slots available.

I think most of the home systems are now PCI-X and might not have an AGP slot because of this.

MrP

andy1249

All the points I posted are from experience , IT is my job , I have seen dells wit h no AGP slots on the motherboards , dells with so called SDram and two pins are flipped on the chips as opposed to anyone else , non standard power supplies with mounting holes different to standard ATX format on the case , etc. etc. etc.
These are facts,
Also , custom boards are only more expensive when you buy in single quantities , for a manufacturer like dell , who build millions of pcs a year, custom boards are a necessity to keep down costs , again this is a fact ,

as regards t oit not being economical to build your own , this is complete rubbish
it is always economical to build your own , no matter what model of dell you pick , it is possible to match or beat the specs for komplett . Again , this is a fact !

MrPudding

andy1249 wrote:

All the points I posted are from experience , IT is my job , I have seen dells wit h no AGP slots on the motherboards.......

And I pointed out that if you order a machine you need to check the specs. It will tell you what expansion slots are available. You cannot really blame Dell if someone buys something which does not has a certain feature when it clearly states it does not have that feature in the first place.

andy1249 wrote:

......dells with so called SDram and two pins are flipped on the chips as opposed to anyone else , non standard power supplies with mounting holes different to standard ATX format on the case , etc. etc. etc.
These are facts,
Also , custom boards are only more expensive when you buy in single quantities , for a manufacturer like dell , who build millions of pcs a year, custom boards are a necessity to keep down costs , again this is a fact

Oh, OK. I just asked the guys in Limerick in EMF, but you work in IT so I expect you know best.:rolleyes:

andy1249 wrote:

as regards t oit not being economical to build your own , this is complete rubbish
it is always economical to build your own , no matter what model of dell you pick , it is possible to match or beat the specs for komplett . Again , this is a fact !

To use a term I really hate, you need to think of the total cost of ownership. When I am considering whehter to build or buy I also think about the time I will spend sourcing the part and assembling them. I put value on my time, you may not.

MrP

andy1249

My last post in this particular thread , let the public speak ,

http://www.ntcompatible.com/Replacing_a_dell_motherboard_-_cheaper_than_just_buying_new_ram_t27774.html

You may value your time Mr pudding , you certainly dont value your money .

MrPudding

andy1249 wrote:

My last post in this particular thread , let the public speak ,

http://www.ntcompatible.com/Replacing_a_dell_motherboard_-_cheaper_than_just_buying_new_ram_t27774.html

You may value your time Mr pudding , you certainly dont value your money .

The most valuable asset I have is my time, it is what gets me my money. Believe me, I value both.

OK, there are a number of points in that post which I need to address:

Some bloke on another website wrote:

[font=Verdana, Arial] Posted - 2004-07-05 16:41:34 [/font] [font=Verdana, Arial] I have a dell dimension 8100. I bought it years ago, way before I knew anything about putting together my own computer
[/font]

It is, as the poster himself says, a few years old. The memory for this system is RAMBUS. As you are in IT you will know all about RAMBUS.

For those that don't here is a brief explanation. Before DDR memory was available RAMBUS was released. This was a very different type of memory from anything that went before. It was also viciously expensive. Several manufacturers used it in a limited number of systems. As well as Dell you had Compaq & IBM, probably HP as well. RAMBUS would only has been used in a limited number of systems in the manufacturer's range due to the expense. Typically it would have been an option in high end systems where people wanted high performance memory and were willing to pay for it. You could find yourself in the same position as this poster if you bought a high end systems from Compaq or IBM during the same period.

This poster bought a system that used very expensive memory and is now complaining the the memory is very expensive. Yeah, that would be Dell's fault.:rolleyes:

Some other poster on another website wrote:

[font=Verdana, Arial]that opti-plex 240's ram are different from the opti-plex 260's ram in that one has an extra nich in it so that it fits into the slot....MORE MOENY FOR DELL....

One uses ECC memory in order to provide better resilience for the system. So here we have one system that uses ECC memory and one that doesn't and Dell is bad for using different memory technologies in differently specced systems? THe two types of memory are keyed differenly to prevent the wrong type of memory being installed into a system where it is not compatable. Compaq and HP business desktops work the same.

The examples in that post seem more to me like people that don't know what they are doing. If you want to put memory intol your system you really should find out what type it takes.

Any and all PC manufacturers will use different parts in different systems depending on what segment of the market they are aiming for. This is not them trying to be difficult or to make extra money. Whether your system uses RAMBUS, SDRAM, RDRAM or DDR it will be the same as any other ststem using the same memory type.

I find it hard to believe that Dell crazy glue the system boards into the cases. That does not make sense, it would make them hard and expensive to service. I would not be surprised if they use special bolts and customised cases. Packard Bell do the same, you can't put a standard ATX board into one of their cases, you will also have trouble putting one of their boards into a normal ATX case.

Seriously, is this a case of "Dell in trying to make money shocker?" Of course they are trying to make money. Of course they want you to get your upgrades off them, that does not mean you can't upgrade them. Most of the people in the thread you posted had trouble because they did not know which type of normal, commonly available, not Dell customised memory their system used.

Do you just have something against Dell?

MrP


[/font]

RicardoSmith

Dell is a business not a public service. They are out to make money and profit from people who don't want to know whats inside their PC. Same kind of people buy new cars, and get them serviced at the dealers. No difference. All big PC manufacturers have custom build components. Usually the chassis, and motherboard and PSU. Everything else is made by a 3rd party and is a standard part.

Hardly anyone makes custom ram. In over 10yrs of working with PC's and Dells I've never seen one use custom ram. However Dell sneakily often use RAM with a specific spec, and timings like CAS 3 and nothing else will work, so most non techies won't be able to get work out why that CAS 2.0 stick won't work. Thw 8100 used socket 423 and RAMBUS. Any machine built around the same time and using the same technology had a bad upgrade path. Anyone with any sense waited for 478 and DDR.

Different links from the Dell site often give you a different cheaper price. However if you follow their links and navigation it usually brings you to a more expensive price. I don't think thats by accident myself.

Buying a machine without a AGP is valid for many people. If you choose to buy a machine and spec if wrong thats your own fault. I bought a Dell 4700 off the outlet store. It has a standard ATX PSU and an AGP slot. Of course I new what I was looking for, and spent about 10mins doing some research before I bought it. Though I don't intend upgrading it. Only a fool would buy a Dell with the intention of upgrading the PSU and motherboard and other similar major components.

Incidentally my Dell only takes matched Cas 3.0 and 2.5 RAM. 2.0 won't work. They supply it with 3.0 but most shops will sell you 2.5 as its more common. Mixing sticks won't work. Once you know its not an issue.

I think Dells are fine for the market they are aimed at. On one job last summer I installed a couple of thousand Dells PC's. Not one had an AGP or PCI-E (PCI-X is for servers). They simply didn't need it. The low failure rate of both the new machines and the old ones we removed was v.impressive.

billstraighten

there customer service are crap aswell ...my teacher was looking to buy 26 computers and he was put on hold for 35 mins ...come on now thats not looking after customers

RicardoSmith

billstraighten wrote:

there customer service are crap aswell ...my teacher was looking to buy 26 computers and he was put on hold for 35 mins ...come on now thats not looking after customers

Maybe they should have rang the sales not customer support?

SeanW

Dell sucks. I bought my current machine from them like 3 years ago, I was on a budget so I had to go for the cheapest machine possible at €1500. Cool.

Then I wanted some extras. Y'know stuff like a SoundBlaster sound card, their over-hyped-up-combo-digital-camera-and-webcam piece of junk that cost me over €120 but was only worth about €20-€30 max. One thing I was smart enough to avoid was getting a CD-RW drive added at the time of purchase, it would have cost €150, I bought THE IDENTICAL SAME CD-RW drive in Peats at €66.

Their extras and non core items usually cost at least twice what they should and you can take that as a rule.

Their tech support also sucks - I remember I wanted to downgrade my OS to Windows NT so I E-Mailed their tech support stuff about drivers etc. BEFORE I made the switch first I got some AI generated crap that told me nothing, I pursued it my question was sent to some dude who didnt understand English, gave me a royal lecturing about software piracy and more or less ordered me to put back Dells' version of WinXP even though I specifically said that I hadn't touched it yet.

The computer now works great for me and it does fulfill most of my needs even after 3 years, But that's only because the computer has been up for several major overhauls of optical drives and RAM including the replacement of the faulty stick of RAM that came with it and caused all sorts of chaos.