Stealth L Plates

Capt'n Midnight

You've all seen them - no white background and damn hard to see if it's a red car.

Down in New Zealand they simply specifiy dimensions. Why can't we do the same ?
http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/licensing/car/learner.html

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/legislation/penalty.html

new drivers face fines and demerit points if they break the conditions of their restricted and learner licences. Drivers breaking the conditions of their learner or restricted licence will face:

* a $400 infringement fine
* a 25 demerit point penalty.
...
Parking fines have a maximum of $60 by comparison the others
...
Serious alcohol offences have a second step of penalties for third and subsequent offending, with maximum fines of $6,000, imprisonment up to 2 years, and a minimum disqualification period of 1 year.

Drink-driving causing injury or death carries fines up to $10,000 if driving carelessly while under the influence, or $20,000 where breath or blood alcohol concentration exceeded the legal limit.
...
Speeding fines progressively increase for speeds in excess of 10 kilometres an hour, with a maximum fine of $630 where the speed is up to 50 kilometres an hour over the limit. Speeds in excess of this limit come into the careless / dangerous / reckless categories depending on circumstances, and also incur a mandatory 28 day licence suspension.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/tests/

Licence tests
To progress through the NSW licensing scheme and get a full licence you need to pass theory and practical tests.

Car

New South Wales has a graduated licensing scheme. To get a full driver licence under this scheme, you need to complete following three licensing stages:

* Learner licence.
* Provisional P1 licence.
* Provisional P2 licence.

To move through these licence stages you need to pass the following tests:

* The computer based Driver Knowledge Test (DKT) to gain a learner licence.
* The on-road Driving Ability Road Test (DART) to gain a P1 licence.
*
The computer based Hazard Perception Test (HPT) to gain a P2 licence.
*
The computer based Driver Qualification Test (DQT) to gain a full licence.

Before taking the tests you should study the relevant guide or handbook and then test yourself with the online practice tests and modules (where available):

* DKT - Road Users Handbook and online practice DKT.
* DART - A guide to DART.
* HPT - Hazard Perception Handbook and online practice modules.
* DQT - Driver Qualification Handbook and online practice modules.

You can buy the handbooks from any motor registry or download them from the box below. A Guide to DART is available free from motor registries and can be downloaded below. Practice tests can also be accessed below.

We recommend you also read A Guide for New Drivers for an overview of the graduated licensing scheme. This guide is not only useful for learner drivers, but also for any drivers wanting information about the next stage in the licensing scheme.

cdebru

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

You've all seen them - no white background and damn hard to see if it's a red car.

Down in New Zealand they simply specifiy dimensions. Why can't we do the same ?
http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/licensing/car/learner.html

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/legislation/penalty.html

a suggestion try google before posting

iii) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1, or ED shall not drive such a vehicle unless there are displayed on the vehicle rectangular plates or signs bearing the letter "L" not less than fifteen centimetres high in red on a white ground, in clearly visible vertical positions to the front and rear of the vehicle,

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI352Y1999.html#ZZSI352Y1999A19


As usual there is no problem we have the law it is just not enforced

Capt'n Midnight

Have to agree with you on Zero Enforcement.

Aa lot of L Plates have a thin strip of white (~5 mm) around the edge of the letter so they might be legal even though they are much harder to see than the characters on the number plate, whereas other countries specify a rectangle.

Also the bit about vertical is interesting since most car windows, especially the back windows on hatchbacks are far from vertical.

cdebru

it says rectangular

and the vertical would i assume mean that the L has to be straight not on its back or at an angle

it also says they have to be in a clearly visible position

murphaph

cdebru wrote:

it says rectangular

It doesn't explicitly say 'rectangular'. It says;

rectangular plates or signs bearing the letter "L"

So that could read (punctuation added by myself);

rectangular plates, or signs bearing the letter "L"

ie

rectangular plates bearing the letter "L" or signs bearing the letter "L"

....and picking the latter, a red "L" surrounded by a 5mm strip of white would indeed be legal. These are the ones the OP is talking about and they are almost impossible to see when adhered inside tinted rear glass, or adhered to the rear of a red vehicle etc. It's badly written and not particularly clear, though I doubt the intention was to make such stealth "L" plates legal.

Downtime

I can't understand people who put 'L' plates up inside their windscreen the right way round so that when looked at from outside the car they are back to front. If you can't even get the 'L' plate on right then you shouldn't be let out in a car.

cal29

murphaph wrote:

It doesn't explicitly say 'rectangular'. It says;


So that could read (punctuation added by myself);


ie

....and picking the latter, a red "L" surrounded by a 5mm strip of white would indeed be legal. These are the ones the OP is talking about and they are almost impossible to see when adhered inside tinted rear glass, or adhered to the rear of a red vehicle etc. It's badly written and not particularly clear, though I doubt the intention was to make such stealth "L" plates legal.

except there is no punctuation so it means rectangular signs or rectangular plates

there is no need to repeat the word rectangular in relation to the plate and the sign it applies to both

to take your logic the sign could be any shape star circle oblong etc etc

besides which it clearly states they have to be in a clearly visible position
so behind tinted glass would not be covered nor would afixing it to a red vehicle without the white background

Basically the problem is that the gardai dont bother their bollocks enforcing the law

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

except there is no punctuation so it means rectangular signs or rectangular plates

there is no need to repeat the word rectangular in relation to the plate and the sign it applies to both

to take your logic the sign could be any shape star circle oblong etc etc

I dare say a competent barrister would successfuly show the ambiguity in that particular sentence. I know that the intention was there, but it's not explicit enough to convict someone who challenged it in court IMO.

blah

Damn right!
If you can't figure out how to get the L plate to display correctly from the outside, how will you figure out how to start the car?
And if you don't want to display a proper L plate the you should try passing you test. (after a 15 month wait that is)

Victor

murphaph wrote:

I dare say a competent barrister would successfuly show the ambiguity in that particular sentence.

Go study law and/or english. The judge would say if the Oireactas wanted the "or" to be your way then they would have done it your way.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Go study law and/or english.

Charming.

Victor wrote:

The judge would say if the Oireactas wanted the "or" to be your way then they would have done it your way.

You're entitled to your opinion, however laws like these have been successfully challenged before and will be again and until it's challenged it remains a untested law. Wording of acts is something the Oireachtais has fcuked up before-for example our act to amend the constitution that allowed every tom dick and harry born on this island to be an Irish citizen, which of course had to be changed later by another act

BrianD

I can't see what the debate is about. The legislation is crystal clear and there is nothing to debate. They could have made life easier by themselves by including an illustration of the required signage in the act, detailing the dimensions rtc.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

Charming.

You mistake me, have you studied law and how to read such things properly.

cdebru

murphaph wrote:

Charming.

You're entitled to your opinion, however laws like these have been successfully challenged before and will be again and until it's challenged it remains a untested law. Wording of acts is something the Oireachtais has fcuked up before-for example our act to amend the constitution that allowed every tom dick and harry born on this island to be an Irish citizen, which of course had to be changed later by another act

apart from the fact that it was not a mistake at the time it was not forseen that every tom dick and harry as you put it would want to become an Irish citizen

as for the law on L plates being untested how do you know this. How do you know that it has not already been ruled on in a court in this country and found to mean exactly what it appears to say.

IMHO there is absolutely nothing wrong with the law only as usual in its enforcement