Importance of size, strength, height in a fight

BrianD3

This is not a very easy topic to discuss as there are so many variables and people come in all shapes, sizes and abilities. But I'm sure people here have opinions on the matter.

I know a female who's about 8 stone @ 5 foot 4 who seems to think that if some 16 stone drunk fat knacker tries to mug her or rape her that she'll be able to fight him off due to her karate training. I say this is absolute BS and very dangerous thinking. It's like a sort of "cult" that some who do martial arts get caught up in believing that they can defend themeselves against much larger and/or multiple attackers

I'm just wondering if people want to improve their ability to defend themselves would they be better to build up their weight and strength with weight training rather than spend the time doing MA. Obviously it would be preferable to do both but that may not be possible. Also, it goes without saying that some MAs are a lot better and more practical than others.

What about contact sports such as rugby. How do they affect self defence ability. Rugby player tend to be bigger, heavier, stronger than the average martial artist plus the very physical nature of the sport surely helps a lot even if rugby doesn't involve actual fighting (most of the time anyway ) Obviously, no-one who takes up rugby does so with the aim of improving their self defence ability. Also, playing rugby is not an option for many people.

Just throwing out a few ideas and hopefully we can get some discussion going

dudara

BrianD3 wrote:

I know a female who's about 8 stone @ 5 foot 4 who seems to think that if some 16 stone drunk fat knacker tries to mug her or rape her that she'll be able to fight him off due to her karate training. I say this is absolute BS and very dangerous thinking. It's like a sort of "cult" that some who do martial arts get caught up in believing that they can defend themeselves against much larger and/or multiple attackers

It is absolute horse and a dangerous trap to fall into. That's not to say that TMA can't teach you something, you've just got to be very aware of what they teach, and just because you win a few bouts at tournaments, doesn't mean that you're streetwise.

dlofnep

Size and Strength does matter, I'm only 5'4" and shy of 10 stone. I'm personally confident in my ability to defend myself on the street through my jiu-jitsu but it's always better to avoid fights on the street and roll with alot of people I'm always weary anytime there's a scuffle on the streets however, especially if the guy is like 16 or 17 stone.

Roper

When you go up a weight and fight guys who are only 5 kilos heavier, you know all about it.
Size is certainly an advantage, but skill is a good leveller.

Train hard and hope not is the only way really!!!

the_syco

BrianD3 wrote:

I know a female who's about 8 stone @ 5 foot 4 who seems to think that if some 16 stone drunk fat knacker tries to mug her or rape her that she'll be able to fight him off due to her karate training.

Just a thought: MA people are proberly thought rules, etc, for tournaments, etc. So, in a street fight, they won't hit you in certain area's, as it may be against some rule.

Due to these rules, would the MA person not expect to be hit at a certain place, as it would be against the rules of their sport?

Also, a 16 stone drunk fat knacker will proberly have a knife.

stagolee

now im not a martial artist so i may well be talking out my arse here, but it occurs to me that if a martial artist was fast enought to get in the first blow and skilled enough to be able to direct it to a tagret that is equally vulnerable on people of any size (eg. eyes) then they could swing the ballance in their favour.
sort of like how a weapon might even up the balance in a fight between a small person and a big person

loz

BrianD3 wrote:

I know a female who's about 8 stone @ 5 foot 4 who seems to think that if some 16 stone drunk fat knacker tries to mug her or rape her that she'll be able to fight him off due to her karate training.

Her training might give her the confidence and reactions to get a first dig in, giving an opportunity to leg-it.

Double her weight - be able to fight it out - think not.

I seriously hope this attitude she has doent backfire on her some night

Colm_OReilly

Weight definitely matters. Look at all the combat sports. They have weight categories for a reason.

All things being equal, a stronger person will win also.

I'm not too sure height matters. I know it matters in boxing as a taller person will have a reach advantage, but from what of seen and practiced of Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and MMA I haven't seen a consistant advantage of being taller.

We all believe that skill will be a great leveller, and if you train enough in the right manner, it can be. A 120Kg weightlifter who walks into my club on his first day isn't going to be a problem other than the fact he'll most probably squeeze my head. If he gets some game, I'm gonna have a long day rolling with him.

In a street or competition encounter, attributes count for a heck of a lot. You gas a lot quicker, your opponent feels like he's made out of iron and more energetic than the energizer bunny. If you look at the thread columok put up about what you'd change re: your training a lot of people said conditioning. Maybe this is some way of acknowledging that this plays a crucial role?

You're female friend, is there a chance you could train with her a bit in a safe environment. Try a few scenarios and hope she'll start questioning her training and take steps to make herself more combat effective? Just wondering.

On a related note, it begs the question of why you do ma? If it's for self preservation is there other areas of your life you could be improving on? Question to everyone.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

Kevin_rc_ie

On a related note, it begs the question of why you do ma? If it's for self preservation is there other areas of your life you could be improving on? Question to everyone.

i asked a version of this question a while ago in this forum can't find where. i basically got the impression at the time there were a lot of people doing "martial arts" so they could train themselves to be some type of master combateer.

i do judo for fun, for fitness and for the competition. i choose judo not over karate or bjj or tkd but over rugby or tennis.

Kevin_rc_ie

on a different note, someone was talking about a small women with a false sense of security due to her karate training. i won't labour this point, nor is my aim is this post to be definititive but, with what ever training she has, if some random punter tries to rape her, she probably has the fighting spirit to do what ever she can to get away. remember, if a women gets attacked she doesn't nessecarily have to be able to kill her attacker with a judo chop to the neck but she has to do enough to escape and make the attacker not want to attack her anymore.

Colm_OReilly

I'm not so sure Kevin. If she's led to believe that there's a failproof technique that will get her out of danger and then in the heat of the moment it fails her confidence could be shattered right there.

Naos

As Colm says..
Plus if her planned attack does not work first time, she maybe confused/confidence shattered.

The danger of patterns I guess.

Kevin_rc_ie

Mear wrote:

As Colm says..
Plus if her planned attack does not work first time, she maybe confused/confidence shattered.

The danger of patterns I guess.

no i disagree, some training is better than none.

pma-ire

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

no i disagree, some training is better than none.

I have to agree with you Kevin.

Most hard trained MA (Even TMA) women are tough nuts and would have a better advantage than most women.

I guess the lads here are talking about TMA self defence techniques that don't seem to be based in any sence of reality, such things pee me off aswell.

It's sad really because many times the instructor has all the best intentions when teaching such things.

Blinkered training methods like, "no! thanks not the right way to do it!" and "just do it the way i told you!" are no good for anyone

Colm_OReilly

I'm gonna disagree with the "some training is better than none principle". IF you're given bad training it will take longer to unlearn this and develop decent skill than someone who had no training. This is probably true for most sports.

Example of bad training. Punching from the hip and low guards common in a lot of TMA styles.

Peace Out,
Colm

pma-ire

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Example of bad training. Punching from the hip and low guards common in a lot of TMA styles.

thats not what i'm talking about! and you feckin' know it!! :rolleyes:

Musashi

I think just the fact fact that a woman Wants to learn to defend herself says a lot!
It is less important how she fights back but that she does,straight away and making a lot of noise of the "Get away,Stay Back,Help Me" variety as she does it!
Fine,if she can close to clinch and suplex the ****er all the better,but if all she does is squeeze ball sac and scream for help she's already fecked the attackers plan of taking an easy mark!

Anecdotal or not,my wife was attacked after a function in the UK,years ago when she was a student nurse.She fought off two attackers and saved herself and her friend.When we started going out after a while we got into a "mock" fight.After I grabbed her from behind she butted me in the nose making the eyes water! And she likes me!
So being willing to fight back and not be a victim is more important a step ,to my mind, than how it is carried out.Some methods are better than others but results are all that counts.

Naos

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

no i disagree, some training is better than none.

As Colm said:
IF you're given bad training it will take longer to unlearn this and develop decent skill than someone who had no training.

As for the danger I mentioned, I may not have made myself clear:

In SOME patterns, your fighting a robotic manouver. As in, guy attacks with a jab, his friend waits until you have disposed of him before attacking you from behind with a grab to the waist, meanwhile his buddy stands off waiting to high kick you after you slam his friend..

As the lads say here, Live training is your only man. And its true.
What I was saying is that if your pattern gets thrown off, and you have been learning it for years, it could be difficult to go into a free flow movement and adapt to the changing situation.

Of course I could be wrong and am open to correction.

dlofnep

im drunk

Clive

It´s like sex. Technique can overcome a lack of size up to a point, but no amount will overcome a serious deficiency. Similarly it is possible to be too big, and run into problems there.

Naos

Rofl clive. Nicely put.

pma-ire

Mear wrote:

Rofl clive. Nicely put.

I think Roper used this analogy already some time ago!

But I think that there has been an unwritten rule on this board about not using analogies!!

EPO_MAN

my opinion is that size matters when clinched, garbbed or held on the ground. In a standup situation a good strike will negate....

**** this I hate MA....5 years of bollocks and i only realised it now.
good luck & enjoy whjat you do
I'm gonna pump iron and get big on creatine.

Kevin_rc_ie

bodybuilding is the best martial art there is.

logic1

Is the aformentioned female hot? If so I'm willing to give her some 'live' training.

.logic.

Kevin_rc_ie

bodybuilding training? don't turn her into a hairy, ugly brute.

pma-ire

logic1 wrote:

Is the aformentioned female hot? If so I'm willing to give her some 'live' training.

.logic.

crying game.....

myemptyhands

as a female who's about 8 stone @ 5 foot 4, i don't think i'm without my defences even in a street fight. i've had situations in the past and have never been seriously injured. i've been training about ten years and while i believe i'm better equipped to handle myself than the average woman like me i'm nobody's fool - a few years of training in a few different clubs open your eyes to the difference that size makes. when it comes down to it though, for most people, when that sixteen stone knacker comes at you after twenty pints, you want to keep it quick and disable him (or her) ASAP. and it's that speed that comes to you. this is not to mention the fact that enough practise of the basic moves is like brainwashing to an extent. for example someone here has a signature, to paraphrase - it's not about the many kicks you know it's how well you know them.
i know i'm small. i know i'm skinny. i know i'm not anybody's idea of a threat and i'm johnny randomer's idea of an easy target. i also know that kenpo is considered to be a bit of a joke on these boards. but i know my own limitations and i know how to get around them. isn't that a big aspect of MA?