Airpistol with no serial can i get it licenced?

F-Corp

Hi,

I recently aquired an airgun which i understand needs to be licenced as a fire arm in this country but it doesnt have a serial number which i beleive is also required. Although the gun is not very powerfull it is powerd by air making it a firearm.
I wish to start a collection of this type of Air pistol firearm as i think it's value will increase over time but if its a problem to get it licenced or i have to get a licence for each one, im not sure it will be worth the investment.

Heres a link to a picture of the type of airpistol In question.
as i doubt the manafacturers name would mean much to most.

The Gun

Please dont respond with silly responses unless you actually have read and have full understanding of the laws involving airguns in Ireland.

thnx

jaycee

I presume this is the section of the Act your referring to...

FIREARMS ACT, 1925 SECTION 1

1.—(1) In this Act—
the "firearm" means a lethal firearm or other lethal weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharge;
the word "ammunition" (except where used in relation to a prohibited weapon) means ammunition for a firearm but also includes grenades, bombs, and other similar missiles whether the same are or are not capable of being used with a firearm, and also includes any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition or missile;
the expression "prohibited weapon" means and includes any weapon of whatever description designed for the discharge of any noxious liquid, noxious gas, or other noxious thing, and also any ammunition (whether for any such weapon as aforesaid or for any other weapon) which contains or is designed or adapted to contain any noxious liquid, noxious gas, or other noxious thing;

I see the point your making , but I reckon you won't get into trouble with that .
It's hardly "Lethal" unless you tried to eat it ..

also includes any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition or missile;

It's probably going to be legal to buy spuds for a while too.

I would imagine that contacting the Gardaí with a request for a licence is likely to be met with Humour, Irritation and a possible charge of wasting police time. Not likely to increase your chances of a real gun licence either .. :eek:

Son_of_Belial

Honestly man, who ever heard of getting a license for a spud gun?! Kudos for trying to be responsible though... I'm not sure though... According to the provisions appended to the 1925 Act (The Principle Act) in 1964, the spud gun appears to be classed as a firearm...

2.—(1) In the Principal Act and this Act, "firearm" shall include an airgun (which expression includes an air rifle and an air pistol) and any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which metal or other slugs can be discharged and a prohibited weapon.

(2) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Principal Act, it shall not be an offence during the period of two months beginning on the date of the passing of this Act—

(a) for any person to have in his possession, otherwise than in a public place, an airgun or any other weapon (not being an airgun or weapon that was a firearm before the passing of this Act),

(b) for any person of or over the age of sixteen years to carry an airgun or any other weapon (not being an airgun or weapon that was a firearm before the passing of this Act) for the purpose of disposing of it to a firearms dealer or a person who is the holder of a firearm certificate in respect of the airgun or weapon or of another firearm which is in force or who is otherwise authorised under the Principal Act to have the airgun or weapon in his possession.

See: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA1Y1964S2.html

According to this, your spud gun is fine as it doesn't fire a metal slug. That's just my own interpretation though. Does anyone else disagree with me?

F-Corp

Thanks for your replys but I fear you must be wrong as I have been shot while on holiday in majorca by one of these Airsoft things on bare flesh from point blank (2 feet) by a plastic 6mm BB. The gun was to the power of 0.5 joule and it felt like being flicked by someone.
Before you ask I asked to be shot.
As far as i understand although far from lethal this Airsoft type gun is classed as a firearm in Ireland.
So i fail to see how my Spud Gun is any different.

Son_of_Belial

Note how I just amended my above post...

Son_of_Belial

It's all very vague really. It's not a lethal weapon, yet it does incorporate

a barrel from which metal or other slugs can be discharged

I'm guessing that a peice of potato is also classed as a "slug" then so... To be honest, what type of firearm you may have is up to the discretion of your local Garda Superintendent. You need to speak to him or her really.

Sparks

F-Corp, this arose earlier on the forum. The rule is that yes, you need a firearms licence. If, however, the firearm has no serial number on it, then you go to the Superintendent, he gives you a number, and you get it engraved or embossed or somehow put on the firearm, and he licences it with that number:

Firearms Regulations 1976 (SI 239/1976):

10. In any case where a firearm in respect of which a firearm certificate is sought has no maker's number or other distinguishing mark impressed thereon, the applicant for the firearm certificate shall cause such number as may be prescribed by the Minister for Justice or a Superintendent of the Garda Síochána, as the case may be, to be impressed on such part of the firearm as the Minister or the Superintendent may direct.

Umiq88

why dont you go to the local super and try get it licenced and show him all the legal stuff and see would he do it would be interesting if he would

F-Corp

I used to use spud guns in the 70's here in Ireland when I was a kid and never heard of anyone needing a licence for them.
Although technically an airgun, It seems because of the loose wording of the law It seems it just comes down to the interpretation of the courts or your lawyer.
Does anyone know of some Irish body whose responsibility it is to decide what shall and what shan't be allowed to be sold as a toy gun that has a barrel and fires slugs.
If you take a walk around any Irish toy shop i think you would be surprised at the variety of barreled slug firing air weaponry.

In short, Toys have come a long way since 1964 and i think its about time Irish Laws were revised In at least the airgun area so as to protect serious toy gun collectors at the very least.

Hard to beleive to possess £1.95 spud gun I would have to pay out
38 euro per year per gun.

A better picture

Sparks

F-Corp wrote:

I used to use spud guns in the 70's here in Ireland when I was a kid and never heard of anyone needing a licence for them.

Me either, and at the <1 Joule level it does seem totally daft, but the law here has no lower limit on muzzle energy for something to be considered a firearm, unlike the rest of europe.
The Gardai in Fingal were cautioning parents against buying airsoft pistols as toys earlier this year, for example, in the local paper.

Does anyone know of some Irish body whose responsibility it is to decide what shall and what shan't be allowed to be sold as a toy gun that has a barrel and fires slugs.

That'd be the Department of Justice I think. Though it gets a bit fuzzy - the Gardai would be the ones to actually enforce the regulations, the DoJ would draft them, and the Judiciary would decide if they'd actually been broken and what the sanction was to be against the guilty party.

In short, Toys have come a long way since 1964 and i think its about time Irish Laws were revised In at least the airgun area so as to protect serious toy gun collectors at the very least.

The introduction of a lower muzzle energy limit would probably be a good idea, depending on what the limit was, but there's the downside that you would also get more abuses of these things as a result, as seen in Scotland of late.

Hard to beleive to possess £1.95 spud gun I would have to pay out
38 euro per year per gun.

Yup. I'm constantly surprised that it costs far more per year per rifle for an ISSF air rifle than for a pump-action shotgun that is potentially far more lethal!

civdef

It's a spud gun, it's a toy. It doesn't need a licence. Otherwise the guards would be raiding every toyshop in the country for spud guns, rubber dart duns, cork guns and the like.

Key words to look at in the definition of firearm are "weapon" and "slug".

I'm not sure if this thread was a wind-up or not, but surely common sense isn't that far gone?

Sparks

I'm not sure if this thread was a wind-up or not, but surely common sense isn't that far gone?

I dunno Civ, I've always thought that common sense isn't, especially when the law is involved...

Gun Shy

a lot of what has been said is correct however like we find ourselves at the mercy of individual supers and how they interpit the law likewise you are subject to the interperation that the garda that ends up dealing with it.

Lethal object is defined in the acts as an object which may cause injury so the rubber sticky dart MAY CAUSE INJURY therefore the gun is a firearm and if the garda wants to push home the point then you could be charged same as if you had an MP5.

Case in point 15 year old that I know arrested halloween night running around dressed as bin laden and carrying his 10 year old brothers ar15 lookalike, arrested for posession of a firearm. Now perhaps the young fellow was running around the town shouting his head off etc. BUT the important point that I'm trying to make is that TOY GUN OR NOT you could be charged quite legally I might add with posession of a firearm if the garda decides to.

My advice approach the Super and state that you want to make a collection of these spud guns say collectors pieces, ebay etc etc etc but your wotrried as to the legality and ask him for a permission as a collector NO COST and see how it goes. dont go in half baked have all the facts etc BEST OF LUCK

civdef

Case in point 15 year old that I know arrested halloween night running around dressed as bin laden and carrying his 10 year old brothers ar15 lookalike, arrested for posession of a firearm. Now perhaps the young fellow was running around the town shouting his head off etc. BUT the important point that I'm trying to make is that TOY GUN OR NOT you could be charged quite legally I might add with posession of a firearm if the garda decides to.

He was arrested /charged for running around with something that looked like a firearm, just as he would have if he painted a banana black and convinced people it was a pistol.

This isn't the same as having it at home for as a collectible / toy whatever. I'll reiterate - it doesn't need a licence.

fatmander

It takes guts to talk about stuff u don't know or dont understand about F-copr,
this guy is just askin a question people, seems legit to me

I also collect 'toy guns', I have approximately 60 guns, 17 of the spud firing variety, and have thought about this issue before

according to all here, a firearm is something that shoots a projectile or can do damage, think we all agree on that...

Are you guys tellin me though that if you painted your gun metallic black, went into a shop and robbed it, that you wouldn't get arrested for using an illegaly held imitation firearm

- your gun shoots slugs of a different form
- it can be lethal if you hit somebody over the head

play it safe man, ring the garda...ask them about the situation above
Don't know if I would call in in person as jaycee could be correct, they could take it the wrong way.

Good luck in whatever u do
Peace man

F-Corp

fatmander wrote:

I also collect 'toy guns', I have approximately 60 guns, 17 of the spud firing variety, and have thought about this issue before

Very interesting, Check your PM!!

fatmander wrote:

play it safe man, ring the garda...ask them about the situation above
Don't know if I would call in in person as jaycee could be correct, they could take it the wrong way.

I would have no problem on the face of it asking the local super if its OK or not , but the real issue here is that one guard may say its fine and another could throw the book at you and in this case that could be Illegal possession of a firearm which I'm pretty sure carries a jail sentence.

Not something you leave up to chance.
I just don't feel I could trust one guards opinion on this.

civdef

Are you guys tellin me though that if you painted your gun metallic black, went into a shop and robbed it, that you wouldn't get arrested for using an illegaly held imitation firearm

No. I'll try again.

If you get a piece of pipe, wrap it in a bag, pretend it's a gun and rob a shop with it, you'll get arrested for a firearms offence. This does not mean that pipes are firearms or that they need a firearms licence.

according to all here, a firearm is something that shoots a projectile or can do damage, think we all agree on that...

No we don't. The definition of a firearm in the 1925 Act is:

"the "firearm" means a lethal firearm or other lethal weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharge;"

This was amended in the 1964 act as follows:

"In the Principal Act and this Act, "firearm" shall include an airgun (which expression includes an air rifle and an air pistol) and any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which metal or other slugs can be discharged and a prohibited weapon."

To stretch this to cover spud guns is ridiculous. I can't believe I just spent five minutes typing this response to what has to be one of the strangest threads in a long time. If you go into a Garda station asking about this, expect to get laughed at.

F-Corp

civdef wrote:

To stretch this to cover spud guns is ridiculous. .

No its not!.

2.—(1) In the Principal Act and this Act, "firearm" shall include an airgun (which expression includes an air rifle and an air pistol) and any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which metal or other slugs can be discharged and a prohibited weapon.

Definition of a slug

2 : a lump, disk, or cylinder of material (as plastic or metal): as a (1) : a musket ball (2) : BULLET b : a piece of metal roughly shaped for subsequent processing

Spud guns have four firing functions on top of potatoes they also shoot water and plastic "slugs" a few of which come with each gun.

Definition of a barrel
3 : a drum or cylindrical part: as a : the discharging tube of a gun

Its all there in plain English

My view now is that Irish gun laws regarding airguns were probably jotted down on a beer mat over a pint of Guinness, but only after after several were previously consumed.

jaycee

F-corp..

I see your point ..I really do .

We all agree that firearms law in Ireland contains lots of nonsense,
there are many other examples (Please don't let's go digging them all out)

The only thing I would comment is that , in here .. you are preaching to the converted. I can see you feel strongly about this, so I suggest you follow the links and submit your recommendations for amendments to the Firearms section of the CBJ to the appropriate people.

This is the link and a copy of the request...

Comments are invited on Section 30 of the Criminal Justice Bill, 2004 concerning the amendment of section 4 of the Firearms Act, 1925. Comments can be emailed to the following address:

firearms_CJB2004@justice.ie

Hope this helps...

F-Corp

Thanks for that jaycee an Email has been sent and was as follows.

Dear Sir or Madam

I wish to make a recommendation concerning the amendment of section 4 of the Firearms Act, 1925.
Under current law any toy gun which has an air powered firing system is considered a firearm.

Unlike all other countries in Europe and most beyond, Ireland does not have adequate Intricacies in the Firearms Act concerning the power limit of said air propelled
toy guns. As a consequence currently every toy shop and many supermarkets and news agents are currently openly selling Firearms to anyone who wishes to buy them.

In most cases these toy guns would most likely be classed as toys if there power output were measured and compared to the recommended power output for such toys as stated in English law.

But as we in Ireland have no such controls in our firearms law it allows for a certain amount of bending of the rules which will obviously result in air powered guns that would not be sold to people under 17 in most countries being supplied to children of any age.

Since 1964 when the current airgun amendments were made to the Firearms Act, Toy air powered guns have come a long way. With many advancements being made in pneumatics and plastic compounds.
Something that is now made of plastic and shoots plastic bullets although not able to break the skin , could cause serious eye injury or worse in the hands of a five year old.

To summarize I would like to see toy air powered guns split into at least three categories.

A. Toy Guns with a power of over 1 joule (should be classed as air riffles as in English law and require a Firearms licence)

B. Toy Guns with a power of under 1 joule (No licence necessary but not to be sold to people under 17)

C. Toy Guns with a power of under 0.2 joule (No licence necessary , can be sold to minors)

(1 joule = The back force of a tennis ball dropped onto a hard surface from 1 metre high.)

With added restrictions as to possession of B type guns in a public place.

I eagerly await your response .

Yours Sincerely

Blah Blah

Ill let you all know If i get any response.
At this point id just like to thank everybody for there input on this matter, and helping me and other collectors get to the bottom of this.

Fallschirmjager

f-Corp..

i emailed somethig very similar...exactly along the lines of the grading you spoke of there as it happens...never got a reply othen then the guy was out of the office.

:mad:

F-Corp

More then a long shot, probably the same chance as hittin a fly 1000 yrds downrange with a spud gun. just look at the email address "2004" ??

woody

F-Corp wrote:

Thanks for your replys but I fear you must be wrong as I have been shot while on holiday in majorca by one of these Airsoft things on bare flesh from point blank (2 feet) by a plastic 6mm BB. The gun was to the power of 0.5 joule and it felt like being flicked by someone.
Before you ask I asked to be shot.
As far as i understand although far from lethal this Airsoft type gun is classed as a firearm in Ireland.
So i fail to see how my Spud Gun is any different.

Why in god's name do you want a spud gun, I had one when I was 10 and you can buy them in toy shops....

Now if it were an airpistol which it is not then that would be a different story

F-Corp

Lets not degenerate to a mines bigger then yours, Just joking.
As I mentioned before I have an interest in all types of "Toy" guns.
I collect them for there value in the future and as showpieces.
I don't fire toys in my collection as this could damage them and lessen there value. Because on this occasion my hobby is affected by a problem that I believe people of this forum could have expert advice on I have posted my problem here, My apologies for this thread being off topic of actually shooting a gun.

And I think you will find If you read the law that It is an airpistol and a Firearm In this country.

woody

I suppose I will have to head up to the Cops with my Cap Gun 2 morrow so

Gareth2303

The only reason it doesn't have a serial is becasue it doesn't need one tbh

F-Corp

Gareth2303 wrote:

The only reason it doesn't have a serial is becasue it doesn't need one tbh

Apperently the density of an Irishman is less then a potatoe projectile.
But in other countrys im sure its got no need for a number.

civdef

Apperently the density of an Irishman is less then a potatoe projectile

I don't know who you are or where you from, but that's the second time you've gone down that road and it's inappropriate. Further comments of that nature will limit your further participation on this forum.

Considering you clearly have a lot less practical and theoretical knowledge of the firearms acts and their enforcement than many of the members here, your attitude is strange to the responses you received is strange. You came on here asking for answers to your questions, just because some of them are evidently not what you wanted / expected to hear - there's no need to start casting aspersons on those who took the time to answer you.

F-Corp

I wasn't being racist, I merely meant the weapon could only be lethal If the potato could harm someone , who would have to be Irish as only in Ireland are Potato guns illegal. after all I am born bread Irish. On the contrary It seems you are the one who misinterprets English. Also I find some of your comments rather strange, Including your nick CivDef Civilian Defence? some sort of vigilante? The Shooting scene can do better then that sort of person.

Besides that it's Illegal.

CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN 40.6.1
i. The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions. The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion, such as the radio, the press, the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State. The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.

Sparks

Including your nick CivDef Civilian Defence? some sort of vigilante? The Shooting scene can do better then that sort of person.

F-Corp, the Civil Defence is an Irish institution with a rather excellent reputation. They handle everything from crowd control at public events to mountain rescue and a dozen things inbetween. And they're not an armed group. And they are under the jurisdiction of the state, the same way the PDF and RDF and Gardai are.

civdef

Including your nick CivDef Civilian Defence? some sort of vigilante? The Shooting scene can do better then that sort of person.

Right.

Any more pearls of wisdom?

Capt'n Midnight

:rolleyes:

unless you hit someone in the eye with it it would be extremely difficult to hurt someone with it, the word letal would only apply to someone who was allergic to potatoes (in Ireland) or an infant choking on the pellet.

Oh yeah, it's a water pistol too and you should be able to fire caps in the back of it. So if you used paraquat it would be far more lethal or maybe you'd need a fireworks license too..

F-Corp

Oh "Civil Defence", Well anybody can make a mistake with abbreviated things like that. But only some are big enough to apologize when there wrong.
I think ive made my point here so.

I'm sorry.

civdef wrote:

Right.

Any more pearls of wisdom?

Power Corrupts.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

a fireworks license too..

I'm glad you brought that up. It's one of those other things that bothers me.
Does anyone here know what sections of Irish law relate to the use of
caps in cap guns?

civdef

You know, I think F-Corp has me all wrong.

I think it's very exciting indeed to be a witness to the making of Irish legal history. I mean, here were were, since the foundation of the Irish State (or at least the introduction of the 1964 Firearms Act), and all of us - firearms owners, gardai, parlementarians, lawyers, judges, shopkeepers, parents, children and the rest of the population- all somehow ignorant of the clear requirements of the law to licence toy guns.

I'm ashamed to be Irish that so many hundreds of thousands of these "firearms" (though we stupidly didn't realise they were such) slipped through the legal net.

Thankfully, F-Corp is doing the state some service, and seeking to remedy this clear breach in the law. I wish him well, and can only hope that his crusade is taken on and followed through relentlessly. My only regret is that we shall have to increase taxes somewhat to cater for the significant increase in the convict population as a result of this, but I recognise that it will be money well spent.

To conclude, it is my earnest wish that F-Corps can stand for high public office, perhaps even be apointed to Minister for Justice. I fear there may be more scandals ahead however. For example, I am worried about the existence of thousands of toy aeroplanes, whos operators do not hold current pilot licences for the type, not to mention the millions of toy cars.

Truly Pandora's Box has been cast open....

remayz

F-Corp wrote:

Thanks for that jaycee an Email has been sent and was as follows.


(...)To summarize I would like to see toy air powered guns split into at least three categories.

A. Toy Guns with a power of over 1 joule (should be classed as air riffles as in English law and require a Firearms licence)

B. Toy Guns with a power of under 1 joule (No licence necessary but not to be sold to people under 17)

C. Toy Guns with a power of under 0.2 joule (No licence necessary , can be sold to minors)

(1 joule = The back force of a tennis ball dropped onto a hard surface from 1 metre high.)

With added restrictions as to possession of B type guns in a public place.

(...)


Ill let you all know If i get any response.
At this point id just like to thank everybody for there input on this matter, and helping me and other collectors get to the bottom of this.

1 joule is too low for Airsoft sniper rifles (which requires heavy bb's for stability and more power for good range). 2 joules is really the lower limit you can ask for.

FYI, a common AEG shooting .20g bb at 300fps : 0,83J

sniper rifle with .34g bb at 300fps : 1.42j.

I know that in back home in France, the common limit for sniper rifles is 400 - 450FPS and we're very close to the 2J limit..