Two hands from tonight

Tackle

Looking for some opinions on the following hands from tonight.

.25/.50 6 max on PPP.


[Jul 12 22:31:52] : Hand Start.
[Jul 12 22:31:52] : Seat 1 : whitebullet has $71.05
[Jul 12 22:31:52] : Seat 2 : dfallen has $61.60
[Jul 12 22:31:52] : Seat 3 : StiCkyAy0 has $15.75
[Jul 12 22:31:52] : Seat 4 : chumley1970 has $77.10
[Jul 12 22:31:52] : Seat 5 : phatknugz has $46.47
[Jul 12 22:31:52] : Seat 6 : TackleF has $48.25
[Jul 12 22:31:52] : whitebullet is the dealer.
[Jul 12 22:31:53] : dfallen posted small blind.
[Jul 12 22:31:54] : StiCkyAy0 posted big blind.
[Jul 12 22:31:54] : Game [24055] started with 6 players.
[Jul 12 22:31:54] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jul 12 22:31:54] : Seat 6 : TackleF has Ts Jd
[Jul 12 22:31:56] : chumley1970 folded.
[Jul 12 22:31:57] : phatknugz called $0.50
[Jul 12 22:31:58] : TackleF called $0.50
[Jul 12 22:31:59] : whitebullet folded.
[Jul 12 22:32:00] : dfallen called $0.25
[Jul 12 22:32:05] : StiCkyAy0 checked.
[Jul 12 22:32:06] : Dealing flop.
[Jul 12 22:32:06] : Board cards [5d Jh 4d]
[Jul 12 22:32:08] : dfallen checked.
[Jul 12 22:32:09] : StiCkyAy0 checked.
[Jul 12 22:32:13] : phatknugz bet $1
[Jul 12 22:32:18] : TackleF called $1
[Jul 12 22:32:18] : dfallen folded.
[Jul 12 22:32:19] : StiCkyAy0 folded.
[Jul 12 22:32:19] : Dealing turn.
[Jul 12 22:32:19] : Board cards [5d Jh 4d 6h]
[Jul 12 22:32:24] : phatknugz bet $1
[Jul 12 22:32:33] : TackleF called $1 and raised $1
[Jul 12 22:32:34] : phatknugz called $1
[Jul 12 22:32:34] : Dealing river.
[Jul 12 22:32:34] : Board cards [5d Jh 4d 6h 9c]
[Jul 12 22:32:42] : phatknugz bet $2
[Jul 12 22:32:57] : It's your turn.

What would you do here?
No read on the villain.



[Jul 12 22:57:55] : Hand Start.
[Jul 12 22:57:55] : Seat 1 : sju has $35.29
[Jul 12 22:57:55] : Seat 2 : kvejk has $68.60
[Jul 12 22:57:55] : Seat 3 : kinghigh has $52.06
[Jul 12 22:57:55] : Seat 4 : timebomb116 has $9.50
[Jul 12 22:57:55] : Seat 5 : Redtom has $14.15
[Jul 12 22:57:55] : Seat 6 : TackleF has $48.25
[Jul 12 22:57:55] : kvejk is the dealer.
[Jul 12 22:57:55] : kinghigh U posted small blind.
[Jul 12 22:57:57] : timebomb116 posted big blind.
[Jul 12 22:57:57] : Game [50040] started with 6 players.
[Jul 12 22:57:57] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jul 12 22:57:57] : Seat 6 : TackleF has Jh Qc
[Jul 12 22:58:09] : Redtom called $0.50
[Jul 12 22:58:13] : TackleF called $0.50 and raised $1
[Jul 12 22:58:13] : sju folded.
[Jul 12 22:58:16] : kvejk folded.
[Jul 12 22:58:23] : kinghigh called $1.25 and raised $4
[Jul 12 22:58:23] : timebomb116 folded.
[Jul 12 22:58:26] : Redtom folded.
[Jul 12 22:58:28] : TackleF called $4
[Jul 12 22:58:29] : Dealing flop.
[Jul 12 22:58:29] : Board cards [6d 5d Qs]
[Jul 12 22:58:36] : kinghigh bet $8
[Jul 12 22:58:38] : TackleF called $8 and raised $9
[Jul 12 22:58:41] : kinghigh called $9 and raised $29.56 and is All-in

What would you do here?
I have a good read on the villain - he is half maniac/half idiot, very aggressive, but I've also seen him get unlucky earlier when he was all in on the flop with two pair and found himself up against triple aces. He's also very fond of Ax.

careca

First hand I'd call for the simple reason that its only $2. Although you only have one pair, at least you'll get some insight into other player if you lose.

The second hand I would fold here. I reckon you are up against a straight flush draw, KK or AA.

NickyOD

Hand1: You should have raised it up on the flop, but fold on the river. Unless this player is pathetic beyond belief there is no hand he is calling a reraise and leading out on the river with that you beat. The fact that its only $2 is irrelevent.

Hand 2: Min raising with JQo is pointless, in fact min raising at any time at all on a 6 handed table is pointless. I fold it UTG 6 handed, and just limp in in other positions. The 8BB reraise preflop screams of a big hand and I'd split the mousepad in half folding at that point. JQo is garbage. Postflop unless he's one of the worst players on the planet you were drawing to just 5 outs at best. Its also a perfect example of why JQo is bad/dificult hand to play after raise because if someone else has a piece of the flop you usually outkicked or way behind.

BigDragon

QJo is a monster I tell you, a monster!!

Seriously, if you want to improve your game then follow this complicated mathematical formula for long term success. I know it's hard to digest but it will help you in the long run. Copy it and stick it on your PC.

Shi1te Hand + Sh1te Position = DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!

Iago

Sorry BigD, I don't quite get it, could you explain it in easier terms for me?

cheers

Seriously though, what Nicky Said! The first hand you should have made substantial raise on the flop, and then thrown it away at the river had you been called down.

The second hand I'd of limped or folded preflop, and would have folded in a second to that raise. In the long term those hands are going to cost you a lot of money if you call preflop raises with them

Tackle

[Jul 12 22:32:57] : It's your turn.
[Jul 12 22:32:57] : TackleF has 10 seconds to respond.
[Jul 12 22:33:01] : TackleF folded.
[Jul 12 22:33:02] : Seat 5 : phatknugz has 5s 7s
[Jul 12 22:33:02] : phatknugz wins $7.60 as the last player standing with Pair: 5s
[Jul 12 22:33:08] : Hand is over.


Yeah, for $2 I really should've called here. I was pretty sure he had me beat as the bet was so small I thought he wanted me to call, and he had called my turn reraise. I agree that the right move would've been to reraise him on the flop. He got me good, I have to admit.




[Jul 12 22:58:42] : TackleF called $25.75 and is All-in
[Jul 12 22:58:43] : Showdown!
[Jul 12 22:58:43] : Seat 6 : TackleF has Jh Qc
[Jul 12 22:58:45] : Seat 3 : kinghigh U has Ah 8h
[Jul 12 22:58:45] : Seat 6 : TackleF has Jh Qc
[Jul 12 22:58:51] : Board cards [6d 5d Qs Jd 3c]
[Jul 12 22:58:51] : Seat 3 : kinghigh has Ah 8h
[Jul 12 22:58:51] : kinghigh has High Card : Ace
[Jul 12 22:58:51] : Seat 6 : TackleF has Jh Qc
[Jul 12 22:58:51] : TackleF has Two Pair: Queens and Jacks
[Jul 12 22:58:51] : TackleF wins $94.50 with Two Pair: Queens and Jacks

Well my read, was right here, I'd been stung for a few quid earlier by the villain and he had shown me his hands when I folded. Both times he had nothing, not even a pair. I severly lowered my calling standards for this guy. I would never make this kind of play against a standard/unknown opponent.



It's a dangerous game with these type of players sometimes. I've just had a full hous of 777AA beaten by AAAA by another complete maniac who would go all-in on the flop with a missed Ace never mind if he paired it. Thought I had him when an A appeared on the turn, and then another one on the river led me to believe he had made trips against my full house. It was some shock to see him turn over AA.

NickyOD

NickyOD wrote:

"Unless this player is pathetic beyond belief .........."

".....unless he's one of the worst players on the planet ........"

From now on I am putting these disclaimers into all my replies. My head hurts trying to comprehend the actions of morons sometimes.

careca

NickyOD wrote:

Hand1: You should have raised it up on the flop, but fold on the river. Unless this player is pathetic beyond belief there is no hand he is calling a reraise and leading out on the river with that you beat. The fact that its only $2 is irrelevent.

I'd agree with your playing of the hand Nicky, but I'm not sure the $2 is irrelevant. You could be ahead and if not you're getting a good insight into the types of hands the other player will play with. It could be very beneficial for a large pot later on. I would ask the question, what amount is relevant ?
If it was the first hand of a freezeout (and I know cash games are different) and I was asked for 100/200 out of my 4000 chips I would certainly call.

BTW Tackle, The fact that the maniac in the second hand had showed you rubbish earlier, then bet big should set off some alarm bells. A lot of good players (of which he/she is clearly not one) will show a bluff early in a tournament/cash game so that when they get the goods, they will be paid off. Joe 'The Show' O'Neill is a master at same.

Tackle

Yeah, the $2 was irrelevant and it was a cheap price for info the player. I was grateful he showed me his hand after.

The player in the second hand (whose names has been changed for his own protection) was a class A maniac. I'd been watching him at other some tables after he stung me earlier and he was at this kind of thing the whole time, he'd either make a few quid from huge bluffs or he'd lose his stack. So I figured I was moderately to very strong going all-in here.

NickyOD

careca wrote:

I'd agree with your playing of the hand Nicky, but I'm not sure the $2 is irrelevant. You could be ahead and if not you're getting a good insight into the types of hands the other player will play with.

Yes you're probably right for this level of cash game but the monetary value of $2 isn't what's important in your decision to call. A lot of low limit players make that mistake and wonder why they can't beat the game when its because they are calling stations in a state of denial. Your pot odds in relation to your expected chance of winning the hand should be the deciding factor. You only want to make calls that have a positive long term expected return. He might have been getting 6-1 but I would guesstimate your chances of being ahead to be about 5%. Maybe it was a just $2 for info but I just hate doing that and paying them off no matter how small the price.

Rodge

so to call here you are saying that you would have to have an expected chance of winning the hand of more than 17% seeing as you are getting 6/1 on your money?

If you have top pair on a board on the flop as in the example but there is a straight draw and flush draw on the board then do you know (or know how to work out) a ballpark figure for what % you are to still have the best hand at showdown?

These are the sort of things that I really struggle with and would appreciate any thoughts

careca

NickyOD wrote:

Maybe it was a just $2 for info but I just hate doing that and paying them off no matter how small the price.

You're right. Its something I do where I say "Ah sure its only (insert amount here)" and call. Its definetly something I have to improve on.

Tackle

That's what got me about his river bet. If I pay someone off in these situaitions 4 times an hour that's $8 per hour down the drain. I didn't raise him on the flop as I thought he had at least top pair since there were two to act after him when he bet. I should've stuck in a min raise on the flop to show where I stood.

NickyOD

Tackle wrote:

I should've stuck in a min raise on the flop to show where I stood.

Please don't ever min raise. Make it $5 to go on the flop.

Imposter

What is it with min raises lately! The amount of muppets doing in from the button or SB is scary especially after 3 or 4 limpers on a 6-handed table! Do they think anyone is going to fold? Do they think it makes sense if they've a good hand? Or am I not privy to the advantages of this super advanced move?

Lafortezza

I might put in a min raise with AA or KK when I'm short stacked early in a tournament. Either a min raise or a raise I know limpers will call, one that pot commits me anyway. Then push the flop whatever comes, guarantees you get good value on your big pair if it holds up and gets you back in the tournament.

If you're shortstacked early in a tournament, one double through (when you push with AA preflop) isn't going to help that much.

I'd also min raise/make a v small raise with AA-QQ from the SB if everyone else had folded. I'd want the BB to call with a crap hand. Push/bet big on flop if everything goes smoothly.

Tackle

NickyOD wrote:

Please don't ever min raise. Make it $5 to go on the flop.

It was a fairly tight table, $5 would've been a sign of major strength here. This was the type of pot I like to keep a lid on.
I wouldn't minraise if I had thought I had the best hand, I'd stick in a half to full pot sized bet.

Imposter

lafortezza wrote:

I might put in a min raise with AA or KK when I'm short stacked early in a tournament. Either a min raise or a raise I know limpers will call, one that pot commits me anyway. Then push the flop whatever comes, guarantees you get good value on your big pair if it holds up and gets you back in the tournament.

If you're shortstacked early in a tournament, one double through (when you push with AA preflop) isn't going to help that much.

I'd also min raise/make a v small raise with AA-QQ from the SB if everyone else had folded. I'd want the BB to call with a crap hand. Push/bet big on flop if everything goes smoothly.

I understand why you might do it in those situations, either as blocking bets or to give your opponent an invitation to push for you but these are people doing it with hands like j9s and low pairs. Position means nothing either as it can happen after a load of limpers or when utg!