Why are the orange order allowed to march in the north?

axer

Isn't allowing the orange order to march just promoting sectarianism in Nothern Ireland? Should they be banned outright? How do they get away with being allowed to march - especially through catholic areas?
I think it is bad enough that they are allowed to march in the Republic but to allow them to march in Northern Ireland is a darn right stupid and unproductive in trying to close the divide between protestants and catholics in the north.
The whole idea behind the orange order marches, from what I know, is to show supremacy over catholics. It was formally associated with the UUP until march 12th last and alot of it's members are members of the UUP and DUP also. According to wikipedia some of its members are also members of loyalist paramilitary groups.

mycroft

axer wrote:

Isn't allowing the orange order to march just promoting sectarianism in Nothern Ireland? Should they be banned outright? How do they get away with being allowed to march - especially through catholic areas?
I think it is bad enough that they are allowed to march in the Republic but to allow them to march in Northern Ireland is a darn right stupid and unproductive in trying to close the divide between protestants and catholics in the north.
The whole idea behind the orange order marches, from what I know, is to show supremacy over catholics. It was formally associated with the UUP until march 12th last and alot of it's members are members of the UUP and DUP also. According to wikipedia some of its members are also members of loyalist paramilitary groups.

I don't know, why is Adams allowed to make a speech at a ceremony commemorating a bomber who killed himself with his own devices, but before he did, he commited some of the worst atrocities in the history of the conflict?

Oh? You say is this a case of "whataboutree"?

Well your entire post is about one side of the conflict celebrating their victory and their dead, while ignoring the fact that republicans have their own poisonous little celebrations of their "glorious" struggle, well; in your opinion, should we ban these too?

Oh and SF have a couple of less than salubrious characters in their wings, should we ban SF too?

I look forward to your even handed and measured response. :rolleyes:

murphaph

axer wrote:

Isn't allowing the orange order to march just promoting sectarianism in Nothern Ireland?

No, it's showing tolerance for the traditions of another grouping in society. It may taste like a bitter pill but it's the right thing to do.

axer wrote:

Should they be banned outright?

No, see above about tolerance.

axer wrote:

How do they get away with being allowed to march - especially through catholic areas?

Oftentimes they are refused permission to march by the Parades Commission. Sometimes marching through a small enclave of Catholics might be the only realistic way of getting a march through an area. The interfaces between Catholic and Protestant areas are often very convoluted-it's not like there's a straight line dividing the cities in half.

axer wrote:

I think it is bad enough that they are allowed to march in the Republic but to allow them to march in Northern Ireland is a darn right stupid and unproductive in trying to close the divide between protestants and catholics in the north.

The marches in the Republic seem to pass off just fine, indeed catholics come out and watch them whilst eating ice-cream. It's just a day out like St. Patricks's day to them. Making a big deal about it is where all the problems start. You're pretty intollerant of them. Homosexuals cause great offence to plenty of backward individuals, should we ban gay pride marches too?

axer wrote:

The whole idea behind the orange order marches, from what I know, is to show supremacy over catholics. It was formally associated with the UUP until march 12th last and alot of it's members are members of the UUP and DUP also. According to wikipedia some of its members are also members of loyalist paramilitary groups.

As has been pointed out-SF contains (former?) IRA members who have been convicted of murder. Should SF be banned? Perhaps Catholics should accept that the Orange Marches are part of the Protestant culture of the Protestant people on this island and just tolerate it. The original meaning behind a parade doesn't have to remain forever but the parade itself with it's lambeg drums and fifes should not be lost to history because it's distasteful to some. I'm really glad when I walk around Dublin that we didn't completely obliterate all traces of the crown from our public buildings (like the custom house and Dublin Castle etc.) because it was distasteful to some-we were part of the union for 121 years, it's part of our history and we're not heathens.

Hobbes

The original meaning behind a parade doesn't have to remain forever but the parade itself with it's lambeg drums and fifes should not be lost to history because it's distasteful to some.

It is about tolerance, a bit like KKK marching through Harlem. Why can't black people show tolerance to this?

Macmorris

I've never been able to understand how people who fly the tricolour could have such a problem with the culture of a people represented by one of the colours of that tricolour. Hasn't a respect for the minority Irish protestant culture been a traditional part of Irish nationalism? Regardless of how offensive the expression of that culture may be, the orange order is the only real representative of the protestant culture on the island.

Catholics in the north should just grow up and stop being so sensitive. For the sake of a few minutes each year, I don't think a small orange march is that big of a deal. Nationalists would achieve far more if they would just learn to tolerate these things.

axer

mycroft wrote:

I don't know, why is Adams allowed to make a speech at a ceremony commemorating a bomber who killed himself with his own devices, but before he did, he commited some of the worst atrocities in the history of the conflict?

But he is not parading down the shankhill about it.

mycroft wrote:

Oh? You say is this a case of "whataboutree"?

No - I don't. I don't try and ignore the otherside of the story as other people on this board try to limit responses with.

mycroft wrote:

Well your entire post is about one side of the conflict celebrating their victory and their dead, while ignoring the fact that republicans have their own poisonous little celebrations of their "glorious" struggle, well; in your opinion, should we ban these too?

celebrations? Which ones are you referring to? Easter Sunday? The Easter Sunday march should be banned aswell. But are there other ones?

mycroft wrote:

Oh and SF have a couple of less than salubrious characters in their wings, should we ban SF too?

Sinn Fein are not promote sectarianism.

axer

murphaph wrote:

No, it's showing tolerance for the traditions of another grouping in society. It may taste like a bitter pill but it's the right thing to do.

It's kinda pushing tolerance in a place that tolerance for the other side of the divide can be very at the best of times.

murphaph wrote:

Oftentimes they are refused permission to march by the Parades Commission. Sometimes marching through a small enclave of Catholics might be the only realistic way of getting a march through an area. The interfaces between Catholic and Protestant areas are often very convoluted-it's not like there's a straight line dividing the cities in half.

I believe they go out to try and march through catholic areas. Their whole meaning is anti-catholic. There is no point showing only protestants this.

murphaph wrote:

The marches in the Republic seem to pass off just fine, indeed catholics come out and watch them whilst eating ice-cream. It's just a day out like St. Patricks's day to them. Making a big deal about it is where all the problems start. You're pretty intollerant of them. Homosexuals cause great offence to plenty of backward individuals, should we ban gay pride marches too?

The marches in Ireland pass off peacefully because we don't have the same problem of a divide between protestants and catholics. I'm also intolerant of the KKK - shouldn't I be? There is a difference between homosexuals parading and the orange order parading. Homosexuals do not promote sectarianism or any other discrimination.

murphaph wrote:

As has been pointed out-SF contains (former?) IRA members who have been convicted of murder. Should SF be banned?

They are not parading down the shankhill flaunting an anti-protestant message.

murphaph wrote:

Perhaps Catholics should accept that the Orange Marches are part of the Protestant culture of the Protestant people on this island and just tolerate it.

As mentioned earlier by Hobbes would the people of Harlem tolerate the KKK marching through the streets of Harlem?

murphaph wrote:

The original meaning behind a parade doesn't have to remain forever but the parade itself with it's lambeg drums and fifes should not be lost to history because it's distasteful to some.

Then why don't they do away with the sectarian anti-catholic rules and allow catholics to march with them. I'm sure homosexuals in their parades wouldn't have a problem with hetrosexuals marching with them.

murphaph wrote:

I'm really glad when I walk around Dublin that we didn't completely obliterate all traces of the crown from our public buildings (like the custom house and Dublin Castle etc.) because it was distasteful to some-we were part of the union for 121 years, it's part of our history and we're not heathens.

Nobody is giving out about them (or am I missing something) - they were probably built by Irish men anyways.

axer

Macmorris wrote:

I've never been able to understand how people who fly the tricolour could have such a problem with the culture of a people represented by one of the colours of that tricolour. Hasn't a respect for the minority Irish protestant culture been a traditional part of Irish nationalism? Regardless of how offensive the expression of that culture may be, the orange order is the only real representative of the protestant culture on the island.

They do promote sectarianism. Its not a problem down south (I don't think anyways) as there is not much (if any) divide between protestant and catholics.

Macmorris wrote:

Catholics in the north should just grow up and stop being so sensitive. For the sake of a few minutes each year, I don't think a small orange march is that big of a deal. Nationalists would achieve far more if they would just learn to tolerate these things.

It is sectarian. Look at their membership rules - you can be expelled for attending a catholic ceremony. How does that bring communities together? If you are a member of the Orange order and your next door neighbour, a catholic, dies - you are not allowed to go to their funeral. A lot of Orange men cried fowl when David Trimble attended the funeral of a catholic kid blown up by an IRA bomb.

Macmorris

Macmorris wrote:

I've never been able to understand how people who fly the tricolour could have such a problem with the culture of a people represented by one of the colours of that tricolour.

It's not the culture that for example the people on the Garvaghy road and other places have a problem with.
It's the childish Thuggish, name calling and other un social behaviour that a lot of these marchers go on with when marching through catholic areas.
I wouldnt accept that regardless of who it was coming from.

There is blame on both sides of course.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Orange marches are intended to go through areas where the people will feel intimidated and to show the triumphalist nature of sectarianism. That is the whole idea of those particular marches. For some here to say things like 'grow up' and 'accept the sectarianism', are wrong, imo.

Sectarianism appears to acceptable to some.

Cork

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The Orange marches are intended to go through areas where the people will feel intimidated and to show the triumphalist nature of sectarianism. That is the whole idea of those particular marches. For some here to say things like 'grow up' and 'accept the sectarianism', are wrong, imo.

Sectarianism appears to acceptable to some.

The society up there is tribal. Look at the political leaders - Adams and Paisley?

Look at the drubbing the Official Unionists got, Allience and Womens coalition?

The marching season is being used on both sides of the divide.

The sooner society is normalised up there the better. The IRA will soon be gone. Hopefully we'll see a sea change in the mindsets up there.

Macmorris

Earthman wrote:

It's not the culture that for example the people on the Garvaghy road and other places have a problem with.
It's the childish Thuggish, name calling and other un social behaviour that a lot of these marchers go on with when marching through catholic areas.

I don't think that kind of behaviour is typical of most orangemen. You don't see it happening in places like Donegal, for example, where both sides have enough respect for each other that they don't see the need to provoke the other side.

And even if it that kind of behaviour is normally what happens at the parades, catholics should rise above it and ignore it. If they're genuine Irish nationalists they should be trying to reassure the protestants that they're mature enough to tolerate the minority culture. After all, isn't that idea of reconciliation symbolised in the tricolour? By giving in to the provocation, they're only fuelling the triumphalism on the other side. If catholics really want to get on the orangemen's nerves, they should go out with orange flags and cheer the parade as they go past. A bit of reverse psychology might confuse them and take some of the force out of their triumphalism.

mycroft

axer wrote:

But he is not parading down the shankhill about it.

So it's not that they exist, it's where they march?

No - I don't. I don't try and ignore the otherside of the story as other people on this board try to limit responses with.

Oh really? Because thats exactly what your post above was doing, limiting yourself to one side of the conflict.

celebrations? Which ones are you referring to? Easter Sunday? The Easter Sunday march should be banned aswell. But are there other ones?

1. If you're going to support a position, you should really research it. Yes the IRA/SF have commerations and celebrations of their terrorists all the time, for example Adam's first condemnation of the Mc Cartney killers came while making a speech at a republican rally commemerating a bomber killed by his own devices.

2. I find it high-lar-ious, that instead of insisting in OP that both sides should desist in sectarian displays, you rant about the orange order, and only when you're called on it, do you back down and insist that actually it's the behaviour of both sides that is unacceptable.

Sinn Fein are not promote sectarianism.

Yeah keep repeating over and over "four legs good two legs bad"

What would you describe sharing a platform with men in balaclava's cheering the memory of a man who blew up large sections of the other side, a cross community friendship gesture.

MacMorris wrote:

Catholics in the north should just grow up and stop being so sensitive. For the sake of a few minutes each year, I don't think a small orange march is that big of a deal. Nationalists would achieve far more if they would just learn to tolerate these things.

Sorry it's not just a few minutes, it's weeks and its the intimidation, and the memory, Catholics past the age of 20 will remember fleeing ulster for two weeks every year as these thugs descended and brutalised communties.

I think defending the orange orders right to exist is regrettable however the outrage and determination and support that would give Paisley and his ilk would entrench their position, and support their claim that they're being persecuted, and give them barrels of ammunition and support, particularly from the middle class protestants.

axer

mycroft wrote:

So it's not that they exist, it's where they march?

Its not that they exist - its that they are allowed to march - this is a show of sectarianism being allowed to exist and to be flaunted.

mycroft wrote:

Oh really? Because thats exactly what your post above was doing, limiting yourself to one side of the conflict.

But I will listen to other sides.

mycroft wrote:

1. If you're going to support a position, you should really research it. Yes the IRA/SF have commerations and celebrations of their terrorists all the time, for example Adam's first condemnation of the Mc Cartney killers came while making a speech at a republican rally commemerating a bomber killed by his own devices.

2. I find it high-lar-ious, that instead of insisting in OP that both sides should desist in sectarian displays, you rant about the orange order, and only when you're called on it, do you back down and insist that actually it's the behaviour of both sides that is unacceptable.cAgain when someone makes a point that I agree with I will say it. I wasn't called on anything and I didn't back down - I still believe the marches should be banned. I asked what other celebrations republicans participate in - why think it is an attack - it is a question.

mycroft wrote:

Yeah keep repeating over and over "four legs good two legs bad"

What would you describe sharing a platform with men in balaclava's cheering the memory of a man who blew up large sections of the other side, a cross community friendship gesture.

It may not be a cross community friendship gesture but it is not a show of supremacy of an organisation whose main purpose is to try and strenghten sectarianism in the North. Neither side should be allowed parade supremacy or intimidate the other side.

mycroft wrote:

think defending the orange orders right to exist is regrettable however the outrage and determination and support that would give Paisley and his ilk would entrench their position, and support their claim that they're being persecuted, and give them barrels of ammunition and support, particularly from the middle class protestants.

Thats no excuse to allow it. Any parade that are used show any supremacy or intimidate the other side of the divide should be banned - fear of strengthening Ian "I will kill all who get in my way" Paisley is no excuse for them being allowed. Protest marches excluded - as long as they are not hijacked for another purpose.

catholicireland

Yes the IRA/SF have commerations and celebrations of their terrorists all the time,

So the hunger strikers are terrorists?? They are heros..

It is about tolerance, a bit like KKK marching through Harlem. Why can't black people show tolerance to this?

Good point..

Sinn Fein are currently the largest party in the north that represents the majority of nationalists and republicans. They are operating in a very troubled part of the world were nobody has no blood on their hands.

MrPudding

Things are no where near as bad as they were. I remember seeing the bands go past playing classics like "don't bury me in Ireland's Fenian valleys" and other "kick the pope" tunes, as they were known.

There is a very interesting book which tries to get to the bottom of the whole Drumcree afair. That is a serious mess right there and has been for a couple of hundred years. Towards the end of the book the author asked an "unamed, but highly ranked" orangeman an very interesting question. He asks him why they don't just march where they will be welcome. The response was that then there would be no point in marching. That is the crux of the problem.

They will tell you it is all about culture, beleive me there is not much culture is watching some drunken sectarian cnut taking a piss in your garden then running to catch up with his band.

If it wasn't about rubbing it in they wouldn't care where they marched but it is and they do.

MrP

MrPudding

catholicireland wrote:

So the hunger strikers are terrorists?? They are heros..

What? Were they in prison for not eating?

MrP

murphaph

But what are they rubbing in?

Honestly, maybe it's just my mentality but I know when someone's only doing something for attention, the best way to deal with them is to starve them of the attention they crave. If all catholics just went indoors (where they'd probably be anyway for the most part) as the marchers went by then perhaps they'd tire of marching through an area without an audience.

This sort of bullsh!t is just another reason why I never want a united Ireland.

murphaph

catholicireland wrote:

So the hunger strikers are terrorists?? They are heros..

Convicted terrorists who starved themselves to death. They were manipulated by current senior members of SF at the time too. Adams knew it would be a waste of time unless they died.

MrPudding

murphaph wrote:

But what are they rubbing in?

This is a very good point. Who really cares? TBH I don't really give a sh1t anymore, mostly cos I live in Dublin, but also because it's not as bad as it was. When I was a kid they knew we were Catholics so they pissed in and threw their rubbish into our garden on the way home. They also made a point of playing the most offensive tune as they passed Catholic areas. And this was in Coleraine, not the worst of places to be living.

I think the problem is that people in the north are just so much more sensitive to stuff like this. They are looking for the insult when there isn't actually one. It is changing slowly but TBH the Orange Order and their grand wizards don't do themselves any favors sometimes.

MrP

catholicireland

He asks him why they don't just march where they will be welcome. The response was that then there would be no point in marching. That is the crux of the problem.

I think that is very true. Alot of the Orange Order are just bigots.

What? Were they in prison for not eating?

No, obviously not. But wernt what the brits were doing to the Catholics worthy of prison too? There was murder on both sides, worse for the brits cause the state was involved.

But what are they rubbing in?

Im sure if no offence was caused then the Catholics wouldnt have a problem. Why would they kick up a fuss over nothing?

If all catholics just went indoors (where they'd probably be anyway for the most part) as the marchers went by then perhaps they'd tire of marching through an area without an audience.

That is a bit simplistic mate, so the orange order are going to go - "oh, there was no catholics outside their houses last year so we wont go there".

This sort of bullsh!t is just another reason why I never want a united Ireland.

Ok, good for you. What difference to you would a untied Ireland make? Did you ever read the story of our fore-fathers who struggled and died to try and get a counrty of our own and get even a small bit of pride?

Macmorris

Macmorris wrote:

I don't think that kind of behaviour is typical of most orangemen. You don't see it happening in places like Donegal, for example, where both sides have enough respect for each other that they don't see the need to provoke the other side.

Of course you dont see it in Donegal.But sectarian taunts and bully boy tactics are commonplace in NI and unchecked by the march organisers when they go through catholic areas.
I wouldnt blame the parades commission for blocking most of them and for catholic people not wanting them

And even if it that kind of behaviour is normally what happens at the parades, catholics should rise above it and ignore it. If they're genuine Irish nationalists they should be trying to reassure the protestants that they're mature enough to tolerate the minority culture.

With respect it's not about culture at all,it's about domination with most of these thugs.Not all of them are like that, but they are too prevalent and too sectarian to be ignored.

After all, isn't that idea of reconciliation symbolised in the tricolour? By giving in to the provocation, they're only fuelling the triumphalism on the other side.

Again thats all very well and good untill you go there and experience it on the ground.Ian Paisley junior would be a quiet one compared to some of these doo lally's.

If catholics really want to get on the orangemen's nerves, they should go out with orange flags and cheer the parade as they go past. A bit of reverse psychology might confuse them and take some of the force out of their triumphalism.

Yeah I'd agree with that.It aint going to happen in that pressure cooker though.The gas thing is, when they stick to their own areas and not to truimphalist marching/taunting in catholic areas, it's actually a good day out.