Lions Tour 2005 - Greatest disappointment ever?

Downtime

Well it all ended this morning and I feel disappointed. I expected more. Was I listening to Sir Clive too much, talking it up?

Some good things came of this tour. I thought Ryan Jones established himself as a number 8 for the future, likewise Simon Easterby had a cracking tour. POC played superbly today and Shaggy had a great impact when he came on.

As Irish rugby fans should we be worried for the future? I feel so. ROG did very little and established himself as the number 5 out half up this end of the world. John Hayes - was he there? Hickie nearing the end?

Just throwing it out there.

youcancallmeal

Paul O Connell made another string errors today unfortunately, Fumbling the ball from a line out set piece on their line, missing the tackle on umaga to let him in for a try etc. He really was hyped far too much for this tour. The fact that very few other players stood out saved him from looking like a weak link.

A lot of players will be coming back from this tour looking a lot worse than when they went over. BOD is probably delighted now that he got injured when he did. Imagine if he hadnt been injured and the games had all gone the same way, his reputation would be down the drain just like Woodwords.

Clive Woodward's new rep ---> Picture

p.s. Horgan played very well today when he came on

Dempsey

I think the team selection should have reflected the 6 nations. Wales should of had more players starting than england. Back & Dallaglio shouldn't have even been considered for the squad IMO. That was my view before they even went down to NZ.

evilhomer

I think everyone knows that Woodward is in fact rubbish! He was living in the past all Tour, convinced that his 2003 world cup winning team would do the job for him again.

In fact it has backfired so badly I still can't believe he was allowed to pick the team for the last two tests!

Lewsey, Moody and Julian White where the only english players who deserved to come on the tour, but instead he decided to bring as many of the 2003 team as he could get. I'm sure Martin Johnson got more then one phone call to come along!

Rowntree, Dellaligio, Back, Dawson, Wilkinson and Robinson had no claim whatsoever to a spot on this tour!

Woodwards incompetence has only given the illusion that the gap between Northern and Southern Hemisphere teams is bigger then ever.

When the All Blacks come for the autumn tour the scores will be far tighter then the Lions scores.

I'm sure any other coach would have given a far better account of the Lions then Woodward did (Although they could have easily lost the tour too, but never by that margin)

The only real dissapointment is that woodward didn't get the boot after the first test.

daveirl

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Kevin_rc_ie

ah sure i'll say my piece.

i think simply if your going to play team a versus team b and team b has a lot of experience playing together, have a real form and inbuilt stragedy for team play and team a has played sfa together, the players on team a need to be better than team bs.

simply, the lions had little structure and player for player, the all blacks were better.

imo, the reason why woodward and england won the world cup is because they play the most ugly horrendous form of the game, do nothing with the ball but hold on to it, and just work for penaltys a good kicker will take. the lion's player could not play this way.

Disappointment for the irish players?

Can BOD be happy going home with an injury. an injury that may never give him 100% confidence in his shoulder ever?
Can POC be happy being obviously second class relative to NZ?
Can John Hayes or Denis Hickie be happy knowing they've no chance of being in the top flight anymore?
ROG, D'arcy and GM, confidence is low i'd assume.
SE, yes he'll be happy.
SB - he'll be happy to have had the chance to redeem himself.
DOC - happy enough i assume, a lot wasn't expected from him.
SH - if i was shane i'd be really p1ssed off i didn't get to start.

zAbbo

Disaster.

best prepared lions team ever, Henry must be pissing himself laughing, even in 2001, he matched the aussies on tries(14 all)

What was the 2005 try count (12 to 4?)

Outclassed by an All Black team that were made look a hell of a lot better than they are(interesting tri-nations coming up)

Snickers Man

Team was a disorganised rabble.

For all the talk about meticulous planning, the test team played like a bunch of headless chickens. No leadership on the field.

Classic example: the lineout in the first test. It was a wreck from start to finish. This happens some times. You need somebody, a pack leader, to take charge and organise things on the pitch. That didn't happen.

Very little evidence of teamwork. Hardly surprising. It wasn't a team. A bunch of strangers who hardly seemed to know each other. Even when they had good players they didn't use them properly.

Shane Williams is a wonderful little player when he's put into space. In the second test, he was so crowded out that he had to resort to taking the ball up the middle into guys twice his size. FFS!!!

There wasn't a hard core of experienced certain starters that you could base a team around. Or even a single successful National Side that could provide the back bone. You need one or the other. Here we had neither. Too many players at too young or too old a stage in their careers.

For example, In 1971, the Test Team had eight Welsh starters. It was built around the great Welsh team of the time. In 1974 the First Choice test side had only six Welsh starters, four from Scotland, three from Ireland and two from England.

But the pack had oodles of experience. Five of them (McLaughlin, McBride, Brown, Slattery and Mervyn Davies) had played in New Zealand in 1971. And Gareth Edwards and JPR Williams were still in the backs.

The pack this time round were full of promising players who didn't live up to advanced billing (O'Connell) or who had to grow up too quickly (Jenkins, White, Jones) veterans trading on past glories (Hill and Back) and journeymen who could probably have done a job if they were surrounded by tough legends but were instead exposed when the heat came on (Byrne, Corry, O'Callaghan). Only Easterby and maybe Ryan Jones could be said to have enhanced their reputations on this tour.


In the backs there were again a lot of veterans who were trading on past glories (Wilkinson, Greenwood). Nobody really emerged as a star. For Denis Hickie the tour came two years and a crippling Achilles injury too late. He's nearly 30 and seems to have lost a yard or two since his year out from the game. Shane Williams caught the eye when he had a bit of space and Geordan Murphy kept getting into positions that almost worked but either he knocked on the final pass or it went behind him. That's probably got a lot to do with organisation.

Speaking of which, the All Blacks were much better drilled and much more efficient. Coupled of course with the fact that they are good players. They also play for the black jersey with total commitment and are utterly determined to win.

We saw the dark side of that determination in the first minute of the first test when they took out O'Driscoll. A fairly typical Kiwi tactic (think Koch, Bekker, CAtchpole, CArmichael, JPR Williams et al) who all suffered a similar fate down through the years. Shame on the rugby authorities for ignoring that one. With guys of a size they are now, somebody is going to be killed some day unless play intended to cripple and maim is reined in.

Basically the Lions weren't good enough. What normally happens, historically, is that many of the guys who spent the tour getting cuffed, return with their confidence shattered. I suspect Paul O'Connell will be a prime candidate for that. So too might Murphy and D'Arcy. O'Gara was playing quite well by the end, I thought, and Shane Horgan did his stuff.

Here's hoping the side to face Tana and the boys when they come to Dublin in November will have more of the latter and less of the former in it. But where the new guys are going to come from I just don't know.

Chucky the tree

i think the 6 nations this season was the killer blow. All the english and irish players had no confidence after a terrible tornament. THe welsh players who did well werent picked, and the welsh players who were picked must of been failry pissed off when the old timers were brought in to replace the welsh players who perfromed in the 6 nations.

Most people new clive had his starting 11 picked long before the lions tour was even announced. I am sure the players knew this aswell, again thats quite a kick in then nuts.

I didnt see the last 2 tests so cant comment on those. SO might get some summaries wrong.

Irish players:
ROG - terrible, like his 6 nations performance. What the hell was he smoking to have him thinking he deserved a test place?!

Darcy- again was disappointing, didnt really spark the backline like he has shown he can. I suppose he was always going out there as a squad player and never a starter.

Hickie - didnt think he was terrible, Eveyoone knew he is/was a top winger in the 4 nations.

POC - Disappointing, alot of pressure on him though. Being touted as a potential captian didnt help. Alot of people seemed to think(or hope) he would be the next Martin johnson.

DOC - again he was only selected as a squad player, so for him to even start is a bonus i feel.

BOd - nasty injury. If he takes his time geting back hopefully he should be fine. Jsut dont do a jonny on it.

Murphy - again, he lost his confidence due to 6 nations and his tactics. Everything he tried seemed to fail just at the end.

Horgan - Didnt seem his last performance on saturday. But hes kinda confirmed what i always though. Great back up player. Hes not a top quality wing. Better centre i feel, but with D'arcy there for ireland cant see him getting his place there.

CJhaughey

Chucky the tree wrote:

Most people new clive had his starting 11 picked long before the lions tour was even announced. I am sure the players knew this aswell, again thats quite a kick in then nuts.

Eh? 11 men? I was under the impression that Rugby was a 15 man game.

I really worry for the future of the Irish side if EOS continues down this road of not blooding new players, I mean who is really stepping up to the mark? Paul O'Connell was talked up a lot but failed badly in the comparison between Chris Jack and Ali Williams , I mean Jack even chipped through a lovely ball for Sivivatu to pick up and have a valid try disallowed. When did you last see a 2nd row from the NH try that?
This whole tour has shown again what the Super 12 has done for the overall skill level in SH rugby.
maybe some of the criticisms were true in the past WRT Scrums and lineouts, but it is easier to get those things right than give players ball skills and handling.
This is I feel the crux of the whole matter there is a gulf between the AB's and the NH mainly because the passing and general handling is so much slicker, the only NH teams that do that kind of thing are Toulouse, Wasps, and the Welsh national side.
Notice a trend? of those 3 named teams 2 are/were coached by Kiwis,and they are all winners in NH rugby.
We need to develop rugby into a fast and flowing sport that develops skill levels, Tag rugby is a start,but we need more ,much more.

Thomond Pk

Isn't the Celtic League to be replaced with a new competition with some South African input?

From the opening moments of this tour the lengths the Kiwis were prepared to go to were evident, that warped sense of professionalism/cynicism border line psychoism is thankfully missing from the Northern hemisphere game.

CJhaughey

No, The CL remains the same.
Secondly the Lions were beaten 3-0 by a better team .
David McHugh the former Irish International Referee was part of the touring lions team , I didn't hear him say one thing about the BOD incident.
Why? Because it was a Legitimate Ruck Clearout.
If you choose to believe the spin that Alastair Campbell and Woodward put on the incident go for it.
If McHugh had said anything then maybe the incident warranted further mention but in this case it was looked at by a citing commissioner and a few other officials and no case was answerable.
NH Rugby has just as many nutters as SH rugby. Grewcock was sent off for 2 months for biting, is that not (sic) psychoism?
I suppose that all NH rugby players are fine upstanding fellows that never put a foot wrong? Get real!

Kevin_rc_ie

Why? Because it was a Legitimate Ruck Clearout.

if this is true then the rules need to be changed.

MG

Ye are all wrong. The tour was actually a success. Sir Clive said so.

Snickers Man

CJhaughey wrote:

Secondly the Lions were beaten 3-0 by a better team .

I don't think anybody has denied that. Nobody here anyway. Dunno about Sir Clive.

CJhaughey wrote:

David McHugh the former Irish International Referee was part of the touring lions team , I didn't hear him say one thing about the BOD incident.

I didn't hear him say anything at all about anything. I guess that was because his brief was to advise the team/coaches about interpretations of the law down under and how they could play within those interpretations. Not spin to the press.

CJhaughey wrote:

Why? Because it was a Legitimate Ruck Clearout.
If you choose to believe the spin that Alastair Campbell and Woodward put on the incident go for it.

I choose to believe the evidence of my own eyes, actually. 'Legitimate Ruck Clearout' my arse!! And there was plenty of spin coming from the other side, too. Like stories of little old ladies in the casualty ward of the hospital saying O'Driscoll was a big cry baby and should get on with it because he wasn't badly hurt at all.

Incidentally, your choice of monicker is quite apt. PJ Mara, the real CJ's spin doctor, used to poh pooh any enquiries about his Duce's role in the events leading to the Arms trial as 'that oul ****e'. You're doing the same thing in this context.

CJ Haughey wrote:

Grewcock was sent off for 2 months for biting, is that not (sic) psychoism?

The point surely is that he WAS disciplined. I'm surprised you haven't referred to it as a legitimate ruck clearance.

CJhaughey wrote:

I suppose that all NH rugby players are fine upstanding fellows that never put a foot wrong? Get real!

None of which changes the fact that Umaga behaved like a thug and got away with it. You will doubtless see the effect of that when NZ come to Dublin in November and O'Driscoll will be conspicuous by his absence.

A few years ago, when the Blacks played a terrific game in Lansdowne the atmosphere was set by the crescendo of camera flashes that went off as the haka reached its climax. The crowd respected the All Blacks and looked forward to the challenge.

This time round, watch the difference.

Blame it on Alistair Campbell's spin if you like. But you know you'll be wrong.

daveirl

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Chucky the tree

Snickers Man wrote:

The point surely is that he WAS disciplined. I'm surprised you haven't referred to it as a legitimate ruck clearance.



None of which changes the fact that Umaga behaved like a thug and got away with it.

So your problem is he wasnt disicplined? how is it NZ's fault?


You should be moaning about the authorities instead.

LostinBlanch

CJhaughey wrote:

David McHugh the former Irish International Referee was part of the touring lions team , I didn't hear him say one thing about the BOD incident.
Why? Because it was a Legitimate Ruck Clearout.

Really? 84 Kiwis (alone) have been paralysed by such "Legitimate Ruck Clearouts". Perhaps you'd like to explain to them (or others worldwide) exactly how legitimate it was?

I have no problem with the Lions getting beateb by the better team (3 times). But I can't stomach Umaga and Mealamu not holding their hands up and apologising. Even though it would be easier for them to do it now the tour is over. Great players yes, great people? Not in my lifetime!

Snickers Man

Chucky the tree wrote:

So your problem is he wasnt disicplined? how is it NZ's fault?


You should be moaning about the authorities instead.

Oh I have. Rugby has not been well served by either party in this affair.

Downtime

CJhaughey wrote:

David McHugh the former Irish International Referee was part of the touring lions team , I didn't hear him say one thing about the BOD incident.
Why? Because it was a Legitimate Ruck Clearout.

Oh yes that's exactly why - probably nothing to do with Mackers involvement with referee development with the IRFU and his involvement with the IRB. It is more likely that he did not want to sh1t on his own doorstep by publically criticising referee's and by publically admonishing certain incidents. Would have done him and the Lions no favours.

Snickers Man

LostinBlanch wrote:

Really? 84 Kiwis (alone) have been paralysed by such "Legitimate Ruck Clearouts". Perhaps you'd like to explain to them (or others worldwide) exactly how legitimate it was?

Interesting point. How do you know the precise number? Probably because, like I did, you read it in the papers.

And how did they know? Because the authorities in New Zealand are meticulous about recording such injuries, how and when they occurred and the circumstances in which they happened. They have the statistics. They are way ahead of most other countries in this regard.

To the extent that the NZRFU demanded a change in the tackle laws because with the introduction of the new 'use it or lose it' rucking laws in the early 1990s, and the cleaning up of what you were and were not allowed to do in the scrum, the game changed. It was harder to compete in rucks and mauls so the only way to force a turnover was to hit the ball carrier so hard that he dropped the ball in the tackle.

The Samoans, with their bigger physique, were natural past masters of the body charge technique and so, according to NZ statistics, the scrum ceased to be the area where one was most likely to suffer serious injury and the tackle assumed that dubious distinction. I am sure that this is what has brought in the stipulation that you can't just body check people anymore. You have to wrap your arms around somebody in the tackle.

The Kiwis are extremely worried that the white population is turning away from playing rugby because of the physical advantage that young Samoans enjoy, especially at an early age. So they are trying to reduce the risk of serious injury by tinkering with the laws.

Fair play to them.

Yet when the captain of a leading rival gets taken out at the start of a match with a dangerous and illegal move, they refuse to acknowledge it, treat him with scorn, spin stories to the press that he's a cissy and softie and then claim that the opposition are at fault for refusing to let the matter lie.

Double standards, I think.

I have no problem with the Lions getting beateb by the better team (3 times). But I can't stomach Umaga and Mealamu not holding their hands up and apologising. Even though it would be easier for them to do it now the tour is over. Great players yes, great people? Not in my lifetime!

Hear bloody hear. Right on the money.

Trojan

New Zealand All Blacks: Tough [strike]but fair[/strike].

Downtime

Some New Zealand humour

LostinBlanch

Just spent ages replying to your post, and then I lost it :rolleyes: . Oh well a quick recap. I can;t remember exactly where I got the numbers from. Think it was from a thread on here. Nz 84; UK 106 and one Aussie RL player who is currently suing the league and clubs / players who committed the tackle etc. I know it's not the done thing but imagine how many less spear tackles would be committed if the perpetrators knew that they could be held to account off the field as well as on?

Also agree with you about too much spinning on this tour (Campbell considering himself the 24th player on the test team - after Clive of course). Also the NZ spinning especially the story about the woman visiting her terminally ill father who says to BOD oh stop crying you wuss. So they have terminally ill patients (and visiting hours) in A & E do they? And that crap about "disrespecting" the haka as an excuse for the tackle, I wonder what Umaga and Mealamu would have felt if a fellow Tongan had done the same thing?

Nz humour - don't make me laugh (no really). They don't really have a sense of humour. A bit too serious about rugby to the detriment of everything else except sheep that is.

Ok rant over I'm off to bed.

Snickers Man

So I'm in Tesco's yesterday evening on the way home from work, along with half the bloody city. The queue is snaking right the way through the folding ribbons and half way down the freezer aisle, but all is well because there's a rather special blonde in front of me with firm buttocks straining to be contained inside a skirt two sizes too small for her and a plunging decolletage.

Suddenly she leaves her basket on the ground and scurries off to get something she forgot. Being a perfect gentleman, and wanting to prolong my ogling for just a little longer, I poke her basket ahead of me as the queue starts to move surprisingly quickly.

After a few minutes she returns to the spot where she left her basket to find that it'snot there. I catch her eye and indicate that I have kept her place in front of me.

She comes over and says. 'Oh thinks. You dudn't hiv to do thut'

She was a ****ing Kiwi. If I'd known I wouldn't have bothered!!!!


OK it's off topic. But only slightly.

Kevin_rc_ie

that was interesting, did you shag her?

evilhomer

Only a tiny bit off topic
But really, did you shag her?

Kevin_rc_ie

i don't know you and i hope you did. i'm such a charitable person.

Downtime

No chance that you got a photo of the fore mentioned buttocks on a camera phone ?

Snickers Man

And there I was thinking I had strained the limits of good taste.

Good to know I'm not the only barbarian.

:-)

And no I didn't.

Nukem

Just home from hols and watched the second test so there aint really any point in watching the third now is there *checked the score too*

In a sentence "Clive ya f*cked up"

.......end of story .......

DAEDULUS

a All Blacks tribute but cool all the same, check it out

http://www.kingsmediazone.com/allblackstribute.wmv

Fearo

Downloading that tribute now, slow connection so its gonna take a while!!! Still getting plenty of crap here in Auckland for that bad show by the Lions. Ah but sure we still had a crazy time. Check out my pics from the Lions week in Auckland while your downloading the tribute! http://www.fearo.com/znaln.html

califano

The writing was on the wall with that match v Argentina before they set off for NZ. I hope you all filled yer boots with NZ 3-0 at 5/2.

the first two series games were so bad i didnt even bother getting up early for the 3rd game.

daosulli

:d

joe90

Whats with all the Kiwi Bashing , the lions were beaten 3-0 they simpler were not good enough,yes what happen to BOD was harsh, im from NZ living and playing rugby here it was a pretty bad tackel but in the heat off the game this can happen im not saying its right or ok i don't think it was anything to do with desrespecting the haka.About NZ being rugby mad and over the top yes we are its our national sport get over it. Ireland GAA and hurling supporters have the same passion about the game as we do i know ive been to many games. Looking forward to the AB coming over later this year should be a good game.

Cheers

Peter B

A 3-0 hammering was always on the cards. On the back of the worst standard 6 nations in years I am suprised people were expecting so much. Especially when clive announced that there were 20 english players on the squad and so few welsh. Maybe it was the media hype that gave us a false sence of confidence.

What did shock me however was how good the All Blacks were and how they just tore us apart. They are just so clinical! Do they ever knock the ball on? They rarely get unlucky bounces, rarely make the wrong call. They are just such perfectionists in all aspects of their play.