Pictures of Citroën Rally

ds20prefecture

A lot of fun, great setting, good people.

Pictures here - warning this page is not dail up friendly! its huge!

MercMad

Cool !

Lovely cars......looks like a really nice day too !

Do you really have to look that ugly to drive a Citroen ?

mike65

Who turned up in a C5!? Nice when I se these events I wish I bought a CX when I had the chance.

Mike.

camarobill

first picture is class,nice work done on that engine too very clean and tidy cars,look very well,whats the oldest car on the run

ds20prefecture

MercMad wrote:

Do you really have to look that ugly to drive a Citroen ?

Well I do....

ds20prefecture

camarobill wrote:

first picture is class,nice work done on that engine too very clean and tidy cars,look very well,whats the oldest car on the run

Oldest car was a pre-war Traction Avant (I think 1939) - the red one with the Mass. plate on the front and the little doors on the bonnet.

The engine is the green 2nd front DS - "Snoppy". What's nice is that the owner has had this car from 1967 - he bought it with 3000 miles on the clock, drove it to the ground, then painstakingly restored every bit of it himself. He drives the bejaysus out of it - it's no garage princess, I can assure you.

ds20prefecture

mike65 wrote:

Who turned up in a C5!? Nice when I se these events I wish I bought a CX when I had the chance.

Mike.

The poor guy started out from Derry in a 1961 2CV - all 425cc of it. He got an hour down the road (maybe 20 miles ) and it started to splutter a little, so he didn't chance it for the whole distance. It is without doubt the finest 2CV I've ever seen - absolutely immaculate - and driven regularly too.

PS: Thanks for the edit, Mike - very remiss of me not to warn people.

MercMad

Fair play to him................thats some commitment !

Any other reliabilty problems en route ( excuse my French )

ds20prefecture

MercMad wrote:

Fair play to him................thats some commitment !

Any other reliabilty problems en route ( excuse my French )

None that I was aware of. I always expect Citroën rallies to end with all of the cars skidding into a ditch when the lead car dumps 5 litres of hydraulic fluid all over the road ahead, but it never happens The hydraulic systems are very robust.

I got to drive a 1953 Traction Avant for some of the drive down. Top whack is about 70mph but cruising speed is about 55-60 because of the wind noise. With no synchromesh on it's 3 gears, no brake servo and no power steering it is a tiring car to drive long distances by my god it's a lot of fun. The sense of occasion in the Traction makes a DS feel mundane by comparison, but that might be just over-familiarity on my part. Certainly, it's the TA that draws the stares in towns, particularly if it's big yellow headlamps are lit up. It's like the Gestapo have arrived.

Have you any experience of cars this age? I'm told the Traction was very modern by the standards of it's contemporaries ('34 - '55), and from 1955 to this day the DS feels perfectly modern with all major controls being hydraulically assisted. But I've little experience of other classics - what's the SL like? You hear everything from "wicked handling" to "drives like a truck", but I'm sure something that looks so beautiful and elegant can't be that heavy. What about other marques/models you've driven? Maybe this is worth it's own thread - "describe how a classic drives"

MercMad

Mmmm well I was interested to hear your comments about "windnoise". My SL isn't mint but its in decent nick and its completely reliable, if I had to drive for 5 days through the desert this is the car I'd pick. However it does suffer from considerable windnoise, noisiest with the soft top up, the hard top is more quiet but slightly boomy and with the top down all is fairly quiet, especially with the wind deflector in place !

To be honest the ride and handling are superb. It is very complient over rough ground and feels indestructible, the swing axle rear end has its limits I'm sure but I've never had it put a foot wrong. I've tried, on a wet round about, to get it to step out, and it will very slightly but oversteer isn't really an issue, though I did drive it on ice once or twice and it was distinctly nervous, but that may be more down to wheelspin in 4th than lack of grip !

Its a great car to hussle down a twisty country lane, the grip is fantastic and there is minimal roll. Its funny to see someone in say a modern 2.0 ltr car try very hard to loose you to no avail.

The windnoise and the relatively high gearing mean it is noisey at anything over 65mph, which suits me fine. It sits at about 3500RPM @ 70MPH which is probably 6-800RPM more than a modern car as its a 4 sp. Thing is the 0-60mph probably isn't great but there is lots of overtaking power if you boot it from about 60 up. Its not the kind of car you race around in, and again thatv suits me fine !

I've driven plenty of older cars but not over long distances. They were either British (mostly hateful) or American (great fun) and obviously some older Mercs too.One of the guys in the Club has a 170V, built in 1952 I think but its a pre war design and virtually unchanged from the 1936 model. I've been in that but not driven it. It seemed fine, quite refined, but a 60mph car nonetheless !

How does the DS fare in terms of windnoise etc ? We should hook up at Terenure and have a chat !

camarobill

ds20prefecture wrote:

Oldest car was a pre-war Traction Avant (I think 1939) - the red one with the Mass. plate on the front and the little doors on the bonnet.

The engine is the green 2nd front DS - "Snoppy". What's nice is that the owner has had this car from 1967 - he bought it with 3000 miles on the clock, drove it to the ground, then painstakingly restored every bit of it himself. He drives the bejaysus out of it - it's no garage princess, I can assure you.

nothing worse than a trailer queen he must spend a lot of time on it,to keep it so clean,great to see them out on the road where they belong and in such great condition.any more pictures of that engine

CorvetteTom

Looks like it was a good run,
This is the way clubs should be ran instead of just 'Static Displays' all of the time.
Nice to get the wind in the hair or Grill so to speak.

ds20prefecture

MercMad wrote:

How does the DS fare in terms of windnoise etc ?

Thanks for the SL description, sounds like it's a car worth driving.

For windnoise, the DS is grand up to about 85mph. The wind then pulls the frameless windows outwards and you get a lot of noise. It's a slippery car (cd of 0.33) but the windscreen seal betrays it's age - there's about a half inch lip catching the wind that you can hear pretty much all the time, but it's not obtrusive. What's funny too is a spot of dead air at the back of the bonnet. Rain just sits there without budging, no matter how fast you drive

Generally, it is a very "different" car to drive. The ride compliance is astonishing. I've ridden in some true luxo-barges like S-Class, XJ6, Cadillacs & lincolns and nothing comes close. I think a lot of it has to do with the 12" of dunlopillo foam under your ass, 6" behind your back and 2" under your feet. There's massive legroom in the rear, and quite an upright seating position in the front so it is extremely comfortable over long distances. We did 6000km in two weeks last year, and I was expecting to have a spine like a corkscrew at the end, but no ill effects whatsoever. The only thing that seems to catch the suspension out is short sharp irregular shocks, like cobblestones.

Citroëns were never outright performance cars, but their ability to hold the road (particularly a bumpy road) is excellent. The DS rolls a lot but hangs on for dear life on it's skinny and soft 185x15 Michelins. Being front wheel drive and VERY nose heavy you expect plough on understeer but instead you get very neutral breakaway (at the surprisingly high limit) that you can control with the throttle or the brake. Overall, it's about relaxed cruising and high average speed, aided by not having to slow down for corners. Alan Clarke (the british MP and motoring journalist) once brought his wife's DS convertible on a cross-france high speed tour with much grander and more powerful machinery. At the end of the day he was first there and completely relaxed, whereas the others arrived in a grimy heap. Top whack in my 2.0 carb is an indicated 100mph, the DS23efi going on to about 125mph.

The brakes are also excellent, with inboard discs at the front and drums at the rear. Because of the suspension geometry, the car squats at all 4 wheels under braking, rather than nose-diving. This makes hard braking much more comfortable and controllable. The brake control is a small soft button on the floor, like a mushroom. It doesn't move, you just squeeze it harder for more stopping power. Sounds weird but it is entirely intuitive and makes a lot of sense when you use it.

The semi-auto gearchange is a triumph of engineering over common sense. You retain the control of a tradition manual, but the clutching is entirely automatic. It works beautifully, loses no power (unlike a torque converter) and is infinitely adjustable to meet your driving whim. If you keep your right foot planted, you'll get short sharp gearchanges, ease off and you get lovely buttery shifts. The drawback is that the system is quite complex to get right in its setup. I don't know why they didn't make it a full automatic, but it is wonderful very much part of the original DS experience.

The steering, although power assisted, is quite heavy at low speeds by modern standards. It does provide plenty of feel for what's going on unlike the completely powered SM & CX "DIRAVI" steering which is effortless, high geared and completely devoid of feel.

Visibility is superb, with slender pillars and no headrests adding to the feeling of airiness. The lights are powerful, and the directional driving lamps actually quite useful on the few times you're on a winding unlit road.

Weaknesses:
Because of the way the car tapers in plan, the rear is for two adults or three children only. For such a large car this is quite surprising.

The wheelbase is huge - 10'3", which is longer than a Ford Transit. As a result the turning circle isn't great, which makes modern car parks a real pain.

The biggest weakness of the DS is the engine. It's loud and rough and of a design inherited from the already 21 year old Traction Avant. It is thrifty and willing enough generally, although my particular one drinks like a fish. It is also incredibly robust, which is why there's so many still about, I suppose. The DS was originally specced with an aircooled flat six which would have been wonderful, but given the number of other innovations this was a step too far for Citroën at the time. It is a real shame, as the roadholding and aerodynamics cried out for something more aristocratic.

The later cars (1970 on) had a dash that to my eyes at least is ugly. The original (until 1962) was a real work of art and the middle one a happy compromise between looks and function.

Sorry for droning on about it - but when you consider that the car was launched as described in 1955 it is truly remarkable. There are so many hidden marvels too that you keep discovering no matter how long you own the car. For example, Citroën made all of their own bolts - each with 2 little chevrons on the head. They made their own fan blade out of nylon to reduce weight. The bonnet is a single sheet of aluminium, the largest single aluminium pressing ever used on a production car. They built an entire self contained factory to manufacture the hydraulic components to tolerances that were unheard of at the time - so fine that some parts do without seals at all.

We should hook up at Terenure and have a chat !

You probably won't want to after reading this wandering anorak-fest. Seriously, I don't think I'll make Terenure due to family picnic-type happenings, but that might change. How about we meet up for a drive instead?

ds20prefecture

camarobill wrote:

any more pictures of that engine

None of that one, but check out the engine shot in this link . This car won every concours competition in the UK for about 4 years in a row. He was eventually asked to stay away These were not Citroën competitions either!

MercMad

Nice summary ! Never too much of this type of detail for me !!

I have driven a DS many years ago. A friend of the family always bought a new Citoen every few years and then kept the old one for the missus. So I got a spin in a DS and I recall a lot of those details you mentioned i.e the brake button, the soft spongy carpets etc !!

The recent article in Classic Cars, I mentioned elsewhere, was a good read !

Yes I'd be interested in a driving event, in fact I have taken some steps to organise these for the Merc Club for 2006.

Perhaps its time for a "Boards Classic Run " !!!

Anyone.....................??

LHS

"The biggest weakness of the DS is the engine. It's loud and rough and of a design inherited from the already 21 year old Traction Avant".

Interesting point this - The early DS cars with four cog boxes and the long stroke traction engine had a very high top gear giving just short of 25 mph/1000. Under normal driving conditions you rarely go above 2200rpm and the little old motor just purrs away. After that Citroen appear to have moved up on the revs possibly to gain performance. The last CX I owned was a semi-auto Prestige with a 20 mph/1000 top gear. At 70mph you had to listen to 3500 rpm which was no fun at all. A top cog at about 25 to 27 per 1000 would have eliminated the noise from later DSs and CXs. So if you want a quiet DS, get an old one - or should I say older one!

ds20prefecture

LHS wrote:

"The biggest weakness of the DS is the engine. It's loud and rough and of a design inherited from the already 21 year old Traction Avant".

Interesting point this - The early DS cars with four cog boxes and the long stroke traction engine had a very high top gear giving just short of 25 mph/1000. Under normal driving conditions you rarely go above 2200rpm and the little old motor just purrs away. After that Citroen appear to have moved up on the revs possibly to gain performance. The last CX I owned was a semi-auto Prestige with a 20 mph/1000 top gear. At 70mph you had to listen to 3500 rpm which was no fun at all. A top cog at about 25 to 27 per 1000 would have eliminated the noise from later DSs and CXs. So if you want a quiet DS, get an old one - or should I say older one!

I couldn't agree more. The more the design evolved, the more diluted the original concept got as Citroën attempted to appeal to the market. In fairness, they didn't do a bad job, selling over 1.5 million over 20 years, but still, LHS is right.

The long stroke, 3 bearing 1911cc engine (essentially the traction engine with a hemi head and a heady 85bhp) is much more relaxed at 2500rpm than the later 5 bearing is at 3000. The engine is much smoother sounding (although actually louder) than the later ones too, but the experts say this is down to the carb.

Incidentally, my 4 speed semi-auto is about 3000 @ 70mph. My 1985cc is probably the sweetest of the 5 bearing engines, but also the least powerful (in DS spec, some of the IDs were less again)

That's a promising name, LHS - do you have a red-fluid D?

LHS

Yep! I have a red fluid ID. The red fluid is all about discipline. When a fix is needed the first stop is not the motor factors - its the veterinary clinic! First you need a big fat bottle of surgical spirit and rubber gloves (I stop short on the face mask and green gown). Keep everything spotless and renew the juice every second year. Well looked after, a red system will serve you just as well as a green one.

ds20prefecture

LHS wrote:

Yep! I have a red fluid ID. The red fluid is all about discipline. When a fix is needed the first stop is not the motor factors - its the veterinary clinic! First you need a big fat bottle of surgical spirit and rubber gloves (I stop short on the face mask and green gown). Keep everything spotless and renew the juice every second year. Well looked after, a red system will serve you just as well as a green one.

Nice. Several of my friends have red fluid cars - 1 guy in Donegal with a beautiful 1st nose '62 ID19. Would you be interested in a DS technical weekend in August? Probably in the Dublin area, but perhaps up north either. Are you in the CCC? How about some pictures of your car - I'd love to have a closer look/feel. The early cars feel very much different to the late models, so much softer and more special.

A friend in australia is running a '57 DS19 daily on Canola (essentially rapeseed oil) instead of LHS. It's not as hydroscopic, is kind to paint and much much cheaper than LHS. He's been running it for 3 or 4 years, and has witnessed 1 or 2 non-essential seals swelling a little, but only a little.

How much do you use your car?

LHS

Technical weekend might be interesting. What happens - does someone volunteer their car to be pulled apart in the hope that it gets put back together in time to go home! I joined the club recently even though I have been using Citroen's for a long time now.

The fluid and seals compatibility is an interesting topic. I keep a range of O rings in a pot of LHS and take swelling measurements periodically. Do you have any information on the synthetic rubber grade most suited to LHS2? EPDM looks good but I haven't enough test time built up yet to say for sure.

I only use my car for sightseeing tours and and rarely venture out unless the sun is shinning.

ds20prefecture

LHS wrote:

Technical weekend might be interesting. What happens - does someone volunteer their car to be pulled apart in the hope that it gets put back together in time to go home!

It's more that people who wouldn't normally have the confidence to tackle a job themselves can do so with some expert backup. Last year, Adie Pease came over from Norfolk. What Adie doesn't know about the DS isn't worth knowing, and he's very much a hands-on guy. So people (like me) who would previously have blanched at the thought of setting their timing, or adjusting their tappets, can do so knowing that if they get into serious trouble there's someone there and then who can help them out.

It's quite freeform, so next time we might tackle "rust-proofing a DS", or removing a roof, or adjusting the handbrake, or whatever. There's pictures of the last one here

Regarding the seals: I'm no expert on the early cars, but discussion groups worth joining are Dseries-L and citroen-dsid on yahoogroups.

Another guy worth talking to is Citroën André. He's a parts supplier with a huge stock of new original Citroën parts for the D, so he can get you the right seal and advise you on alternatives. He can be a bit swamped at times, so sometimes it's better to ring him.

LHS

Thanks for those very useful links which I will follow up next week. I will also keep an eye out for any further mention of the technical weekend which I hope to attend.

ds20prefecture

Hi LHS

The technical weekend will happen on the last weekend of October or the first weekend of November. The reason for the unseasonable date is to tie in with the schedule of a visiting expert from Australia who is bringing his 1957 DS19 over. This is the guy running canola I was telling you about. If you have an older DS, this is the tech weekend for you. I might be able to coax a guy from Scotland down with his 1960 ID, and my friend from Donegal with the 62. Overall, it'll be an LHS focussed weekend, and a real pity if you miss it.

Can you drop me a private message with your email address and/or phone number so that I can include you in any communications? It'll be in the Citroënian too, but as that's monthly it's not the most efficient means of communication!

Lyre61

Hi, just picking up on a point on the steering on the Sm, It does feel different from the DS but I think it provides just as much feel but you have to get use to the way the feed back is provided. The SM has a complicated feel because of the small number of turns from lock to lock add that to the fact that the amount of power steering available changes with the speed you are doing and it can seriously confuse a newcomer to the car. The DS steering on the other hand feels good from the minute you get behind the wheel and confidence comes very quickly. With the SM and to a certain extent the CX sharp movements of the steering wheel at low speeds tend to throw the cars around a lot. Where it starts to show the benifits is when you start to travel at speed and the amount of pressure to turn the steering wheel increases and changes of direction become very percise and you feel very much in control of the car. Just my tupence worth.

ds20prefecture

Lyre61 wrote:

With the SM and to a certain extent the CX sharp movements of the steering wheel at low speeds tend to throw the cars around a lot. Where it starts to show the benifits is when you start to travel at speed and the amount of pressure to turn the steering wheel increases and changes of direction become very percise and you feel very much in control of the car.

I haven't driven an SM, but I have been driven in one. I have driven a CX and I thought the steering was fantastic, particularly at low speeds on a winding hairpin road. I suppose my point about lack of feel is because the rack is completely powered as opposed to power assisted. The steering is incredibly direct, yet isolates you from what is going on at the road wheel.

Do you have an old Citroën? Would you be interested in the DS technical weekend? If so, drop me a private message with your email/phone and I'll put you on the distribution list.

Lyre61

your right, once you go to power steering you lose the feel you get compared to a car with no power steering. I had a Lancia Beta 2000 with no poewer steering great car once it was moving...but try and do a three point turn...better than any gym!

ds20prefecture

MMMmmmm. Lancia Beta.

My brother had 2, a 2000 and an 1800 (I think). Beautiful cars.

A tad... fragile

Lyre61

It came just after a white DS 20 pallas and before a Bright Yellow GS, pro rata the GS could really move, lovely flat four engine. Had a GSA later but it was too heavy and had lost that lovely open feeling the GS had. Went to one of the meets in Herts in 84 and they had a lovely rotary GS, that one have been fun.