Kidney's tactics

KnowItAll

The way NZ has trashed the lions will prove to be the best thing that has ever happened northern hemisphere rugby. Watching super 12 it always seemed way better than whats in Europe but we were constantly told that the H'Cup was better (stephen jones of theTimes was chief in that regard!).

Atitudes are different. While in Europe they're obsessed about the scrums, it's only a tiny part of the game down under (hence Marcus Horan should have gone with the lions).

I'm begining to wonder what way will Declan Kidney coach munster in the coming season. I was hoping they'd get an Aussie or a New Zealander as they are the best coaches.

Kidney done brilliantly for munster to get them to finals of the H'Cup but rugby has moved on and is still moving on. Gaffney was just starting to get things going (although his signings were poor) as witnessed in the match vs Bairritz and he's gone now.

So as Whales and New Zealand proved, attack can overwhelm the tightest of defences. I'm hoping Kidney along with Eddie O'Sullivan realises this.

KnowItAll

KnowItAll wrote:

The way NZ has trashed the lions will prove to be the best thing that has ever happened northern hemisphere rugby. Watching super 12 it always seemed way better than whats in Europe but we were constantly told that the H'Cup was better (stephen jones of theTimes was chief in that regard!).

Atitudes are different. While in Europe they're obsessed about the scrums, it's only a tiny part of the game down under (hence Marcus Horan should have gone with the lions).

I'm begining to wonder what way will Declan Kidney coach munster in the coming season. I was hoping they'd get an Aussie or a New Zealander as they are the best coaches.

Kidney done brilliantly for munster to get them to finals of the H'Cup but rugby has moved on and is still moving on. Gaffney was just starting to get things going (although his signings were poor) as witnessed in the match vs Bairritz and he's gone now.

So as Whales and New Zealand proved, attack can overwhelm the tightest of defences. I'm hoping Kidney along with Eddie O'Sullivan realises this.

I'm suprised nobody has an opinion on this or could it be that they fear speaking out against Kidney just like people feared to speak out against Woodward after the world cup (I'm not comparing them as coaches btw).

Amz

Did you really need to quote your entire post again?

Snickers Man

KnowItAll wrote:

The way NZ has trashed the lions will prove to be the best thing that has ever happened northern hemisphere rugby. Watching super 12 it always seemed way better than whats in Europe but we were constantly told that the H'Cup was better (stephen jones of theTimes was chief in that regard!).

These things always go in cycles. Ultimately in rugby there is no substitute for being big, strong and brutal. Historically you will get a team that will play to this strength, it will become successful. People will try and live with it up front and will fail, then along will come a team with some attacking players and with a modicum of luck and a lot of devil-may-care abandon they will score a crushing win celebrated for decades and people will think we're on the cusp of a new wave of running rugby.

Which will last about a season or so before the natural order of big powerful forwards asserts itself.

eg 1971 Lions. A brilliant backline. Scored 40-odd points against Wellington,one of the toughest provincial sides in teh days of a three point try. It would be 60+ points today. Didn't really have the forwards to crush the All Blacks in the Tests but got enough ball for their backs, and more importantly their kicker Barry John, to win the tests. Despite, and not alot of people realise this, being out scored in the try stakes in the overall test series.

What happened? Was that the start of a great era of British back play? Hell no. Three years later they went to South Africa with a monster pack and a brutal attitude and came away unbeaten. Their backs were pretty anonymous. Contrast the backline of 1971 with that of 1974.

in 1971 you had:

Gareth Edwards
Barry John
Mike Gibson
John Dawes
DAvid Duckham
Gerald Davies
JPR Williams

I suspect even the average rugby fan under 30 would have heard of most of them.

Now 1974 How many of these have you heard of?
Edwards and JPR Williams were there. You also had:

Phil Bennett
Dick Milliken
Ian McGeechan
Billy Steele
JJ Williams

Quick. Without googling. What country(ies) did Steele and Milliken come from? What position(s) did they play? Ever heard tales about their great exploits at your father's knee? Didn't think so.

The Lions knew that in the long run forward power is the only guarantee of victory. Same as the Blacks have always known it and the Boks too. So they played to those strengths with the great pack they had and it proved successful.

The way to have beaten this All Black team, as England showed, was to stick the ball up your jumper and trundle them into the ground (legally).

The Lions just did not have a strong enough pack to do it.

Snickers Man

Amz wrote:

Did you really need to quote your entire post again?

Narky isn't she?

Ironically, reminds me of the sort of school marm who would normally get you to write something out 100 times, not complain about writing it twice.

OK that's me banned.

;-)

Eoin

Don't forget that one of the reasons that S12 rugby is so pretty to watch is because the game is often played at the expense of the rules of the game.

Southern hemisphere refs can have a tendency to ignore forward passes, knock ons, and off the ball incidents in order to get a free flowing game. I think this has been evident in the tests so far.

Also, your point about the scrum not being a big part of the game: although it is true that AB props are not as always as technically proficient as scrummaging as their Northern counterparts, the AB scrum has still managed to dominate.
I am a big fan of Marcus Horan, but I really think he would have been under pressure in the scrums in this test. I think that Gethin Jenkins represents a better rounded modern day prop - deceptively quick (remember that try against us in the 6N - offside or not), but well able to handle himself in the scrum at the same time.

As Snickers man said - well, at least I think what he was saying - is that you can't depend on the light footed dancers in the backline - we have them this tour (Williams, Henson, Murphy et al). You need the platform to give them, and the forwards have been unable to provide this.

Snickers Man

eoin_s wrote:

As Snickers man said - well, at least I think what he was saying - is that you can't depend on the light footed dancers in the backline - we have them this tour (Williams, Henson, Murphy et al). You need the platform to give them, and the forwards have been unable to provide this.

And if you want proof of that think back to 1985/86. Ireland won the Triple Crown and Championship with 7 points out of 8 playing fast running rugby and ignoring set-piece attrition. "We won't get involved in any macho scrums. The scrum is just for restarting the game" said Coach Mick Doyle.

What happened?

Next year everybody forced us to scrum. England in particular got three tries and one penalty try from pushovers which started on the 22 yard line. Young fellow called Dean Richards scored two of them.

That was a whitewash year. The classic Hero to Zero routine.

Mungaman

eoin_s wrote:

Also, your point about the scrum not being a big part of the game: although it is true that AB props are not as always as technically proficient as scrummaging as their Northern counterparts, the AB scrum has still managed to dominate.

Wtf? Technically profficent the AB props are two of the best in world rugby. Carl Hayman is def the best prop in world rugby, he's massive can lift by himself in the lineout, is quick round the track and one of the best technically profficent scrummagers in the game. New Zealand has had countless top front rowers , Fitspatrick, Olo Brown, Craig Dowd, Carl Hoft, and who can forget the monster Case Mews.

The scrum has dominated countless matches but I hate to say it its starting to almost follow rugby league with some of the put ins by half backs and screwing rather than competing for straight ball. When was the last time you saw a scrum go ten meters and over the line?

The Abs have dominated because they have the timimng down pat, theres nearly as many calls being given at scrum time as there is at a lineout. Its all about when to push what prop is going to stop at count of generally two or three. The IRB are going to have to do something about it and I don't think the day is far off where the ref will call "ball in" to the half backs. Watch for it on Sat in the test, its severly slowing the game and producing more free kicks Stringers an expert at it. The rules state that you have to put the ball in immeadiatly once the scrum is set.

KnowItAll

Good points folks. I still don't think NZ are that bothered about the scrum. They are just happy to hold their own in that regard although they have good scrummagers like Hayman. They would never have played a player like Julien White. Their scrummagers are very skillfull and mobile because they need to fit into the attacking system.

As for attack vs defence, I dunno. NZ passing out of the tackle is unreal at the moment. So maybe the main focus should not be on attacking angles and speed (which of course are important) but on developing the players skills. At the moment NZ are leading the way with attack. They are the best team in the world at the moment but can never seem to dominate the tri nations so it should be interesting what happens this year in the tri-nations. It should tell how much NZ are after coming on since last years tri-nations.

KnowItAll

Snickers Man wrote:

Narky isn't she?

Ironically, reminds me of the sort of school marm who would normally get you to write something out 100 times, not complain about writing it twice.

OK that's me banned.

;-)

I think she read it again and realizied her mistake and got p**sed off!
Sorry AMZ!

zAbbo

KnowItAll wrote:

They are the best team in the world at the moment but can never seem to dominate the tri nations so it should be interesting what happens this year in the tri-nations. It should tell how much NZ are after coming on since last years tri-nations.

Yeah it will be interesting now, The lions are possibly making them look better than they are, At this moment in time, i think the boks are more than capable for them