Fitz Cash Game Hand

karlh

Hi all,

looking for impressions on the folowing hand from the 25 cash game in the Fitz yesterday. this hurt....

i have about €55 and in late position.

its raised to €2.50 and along with 6 others, i call with Js9s

flop comes down J 9 2 with 2 diamonds.

checked to original raiser who bets the pot (bout €20)

another player goes all in for less than that and its back to me.....seemed like a no brainer so i push for €55, taking my chances im not up against JJ or 99.

folded around to raiser who thinks and calls.

river rag, turn Q and raiser turns over 10 8 os for the straight.

1. should i have flat called and jammed on the turn? (with 2 diamonds showing) looking back it would have taken it down......

2. how bad a call was it from original raiser considering he was drawing to the low end with his diamond outs dead for all he knew? at first i thought he had the odds until i realised it was off suit too :eek:

i'm not bitter, honest.

impr0v

1. Personally I think you played it pretty well, and i'm not convinced waiting for the turn would have affected the eventual result.
2. 'Optimistic' call from the original raiser.

Lafortezza

You got your money in while you were ahead. What are you complaining about?
If you called and a diamond came on the turn would you really have folded with the pot that size?

Davey Devil

Your biggest mistake was playing in that 25 game.

Wallko

Your spot on Davey, that game is a joke, some of the plays you see are ridiculous

Samba

And if you do play the game, don't be calling raises with hands like J9s!

Iago

karlh wrote:

Hi all,

looking for impressions on the folowing hand from the 25 cash game in the Fitz yesterday. this hurt....

i have about €55 and in late position.

its raised to €2.50 and along with 6 others, i call with Js9s

flop comes down J 9 2 with 2 diamonds.

checked to original raiser who bets the pot (bout €20)

another player goes all in for less than that and its back to me.....seemed like a no brainer so i push for €55, taking my chances im not up against JJ or 99.

folded around to raiser who thinks and calls.

river rag, turn Q and raiser turns over 10 8 os for the straight.

1. should i have flat called and jammed on the turn? (with 2 diamonds showing) looking back it would have taken it down......

2. how bad a call was it from original raiser considering he was drawing to the low end with his diamond outs dead for all he knew? at first i thought he had the odds until i realised it was off suit too :eek:

i'm not bitter, honest.

I think he did have the odds...just about, or close enough to not make a difference for the pot on offer anyway. (but then it's not my strong point so I'm probably way off) when you take into account what he had already put in the pot and the fact that there was no more betting to come.

This is the problem with J9s, with that many callers in front of you, you're almost obligated to call if you follow any kind of starting hand pattern at all. But unless you hit a miracle flop it's more likely going to get you in trouble than anything else. In this case I think you were unlucky to run into someone who was willing to gamble their stack on the off-chance of hitting their cards. Generally though you'll end up folding after the flop anyway, or find yourself having to call a bet when you hit some of what you're looking for. I much prefer JTs in that situation, but even then that can be a trouble hand.

I'd of folded preflop, but then again I think I play either too tight or too loose never in the middle.

The Snapper

Imho Playing J-9s here for €2.50 is a good play.With 6 x €2.50 (€15)already in the pot its worth a stab in late position,also easy to get away from if you miss.
However the villains call post flop ( €55 for litttle over 2/1 pot odds) is a bad call when you consider he has no implied odds with two players all-in and only a little under 4.5 / 1 on hitting his up and down str8 draw.
"Enter Maths wiz, poster torn to shreds oh no what was I thinkin"

karlh

Samba wrote:

And if you do play the game, don't be calling raises with hands like J9s!

well im not playing it to hit a j-high board. 2 pair or nice flush/straight draw is obviously what im looking for.

calling a raise with a table full of callers is sound once you don't lose sight of why you are in the hand.

Samba

As Iago pointed out the problem with calling with these rags even with good odds on your money is if you do catch a nice bit of the flop it's harder to get away from the hand.


Had you simply folded pre-flop you would have avoided this situation, imo it is best to avoid these marginal situations esp. considering it's the 25 game, nothing fancy here, straight forward poker show down the best that you can.

Getting involved in big pots with marginal hands can win money but overall I believe it more often than not it gets you into trouble.

Yes you should call when you get good odds but if you did this in the 25 game, you would end up being involved in every pot

Best to do this on rare occasion and sit back and be patient

NickyOD

Samba wrote:

And if you do play the game, don't be calling raises with hands like J9s!

What price was he getting. 7-1? I'd call with almost anything there especially if I know I can outplay a poor table postflop. He played it perfectly and got sucked out on. Shrug and move one.

WTF is he going to wait for? Aces? Even with Jacks if he flopped a set they'd have been cracked here too. The preflop call is completey irrelevent Samba. He got his chips in with the best hand. +EV, +EV, +EV, +EV!!!!!!!

Samba

in the 25 game you will get those odds in every hand played, does this mean you see every flop? You can quickly kiss your stack goodbye if you were to call every time for odds in this game and if he had JJ he would not have flat called...... and 108 would probably have not been in the pot.

The Cards pre-flop are totally relevant as he had rags he flat called and let 5 other people see the flop, he would not have done this with a strong hand 1010-AA and he would have thined the field.

When you make these value calls, don't be so surprised when you get outdrawn, especially considering how many people saw the flop

NickyOD

Samba wrote:

in the 25 game you will get those odds in every hand played, does this mean you see every flop?

If your hand is somewhat co-ordinated. Yes. There's very little I'll fold for that price.

Samba

When you have a table full of idiots, you play simple straight forward poker and you grind out hands nothing fancy.

Loose players - Play ultra tight

Tight a s s players - you loosen up a little and go through gears.

If you are playing with good players, yes by all means make these value calls as if they are holding AA and you catch a nice flop, he may well commit his entire stack and you get paid off.

not in the 25 game however

NickyOD

Samba wrote:

When you have a table full of idiots, you play simple straight forward poker and you grind out hands nothing fancy.

Loose players - Play ultra tight

Tight a s s players - you loosen up a little and go through gears.

If you are playing with good players, yes by all means make these value calls as if they are holding AA and you catch a nice flop, he may well commit his entire stack and you get paid off.

not in the 25 game however

You're telling me your'e going to fold a very playable hand getting 7-1? The fact that the table is loose means you should limp in and see MORE flops NOT less because you're more likely to get paid off when you're ahead. He has 9-1 to flop 2 pair and 6.4% to make a flush Not including the odds of making a straight or other hands. Folding here is just weak/scared cash game play. If you only play big hands then you must be INCREDIBLY easy to play against.

Samba

Nicky, this is the 25 game, have you ever played it?

By the sounds of things I doubt it. Only play big hands and you will get paid off every time.

1+1 = 2.

do you REALLY belive there is a need for caps? it's getting INCREDIBLY annoying.

NickyOD

I play on the Party network, so I know all about crazy cash games. I've post many of the hands here.

Samba

You know nothing of crazy cash games until you have played the 25 game in the Fitz...

Hectorjelly

In loose games against bad players you should play much looser than normal as long as the blind structure and stack sizes allow it, because you will get paid off when you flop monsters, and be able to get away cheaply when you flop a second best hand. The real problem with this hand is that he got outdrawn, and attempting to blame that on starting hand selection is weak. As nicky pointed out if he had a set he would of lost anyway, are you suggesting he either fold 99/22/jj or reraise with them? If you reraise with 99 here you may as well take out your money and set fire to it.

NickyOD

Samba wrote:

You know nothing of crazy cash games until you have played the 25 game in the Fitz...

I beg to differ.

$100 NL Hold'em - Sunday, July 03, 08:30:04 EDT 2005
Table Table 36820 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: TheSqueeze79 ( $141.5 )
Seat 5: penisula ( $150.9 )
Seat 6: scottfox777 ( $79.55 )
Seat 1: PokGaiDui ( $35.1 )
Seat 4: GRYNDIR ( $94 )
Seat 3: gkramerica1 ( $117.55 )
GRYNDIR posts small blind [$0.5].
penisula posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to TheSqueeze79 [ 4c 4d]
scottfox777 calls [$1].
PokGaiDui folds.
TheSqueeze79 calls [$1].
gkramerica1 folds.
GRYNDIR calls [$0.5].
penisula checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 3c, Kh]
GRYNDIR checks.
penisula checks.
scottfox777 checks.
TheSqueeze79 bets [$3].
GRYNDIR calls [$3].
penisula calls [$3].
scottfox777 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc]
GRYNDIR checks.
penisula checks.
TheSqueeze79 bets [$12].
GRYNDIR folds.
penisula calls [$12].
** Dealing River ** [ Qh]
penisula is all-In [$134.9]
TheSqueeze79 is all-In.
penisula shows [ 5s, 2s] high card king.
TheSqueeze79 shows [ 4c, 4d] three of a kind, fours.
penisula wins $9.4 from side pot #1 with high card king.
TheSqueeze79 wins $286 from the main pot with three of a kind, fours.

Samba

How many flops will you have to see before you flop your monster?

The starting hand is the problem Hector.

As I pointed out and you obviously did not read if he had JJ he would have raised very big and 108 would be faced with a pot sized bet at this point I very much doubt he would have called and seen that flop.

In short you are both suggesting that you should just join the gamble/muppet fest and hope for luck to pay off.

I have played this game on 5 or six occasions and left averaging 125 profit per session and from my experience you are better off letting the muppets cut each other up and getting paid on the big hands, because you do and every time.

Samba

NickyOD wrote:

I beg to differ.

$100 NL Hold'em - Sunday, July 03, 08:30:04 EDT 2005
Table Table 36820 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: TheSqueeze79 ( $141.5 )
Seat 5: penisula ( $150.9 )
Seat 6: scottfox777 ( $79.55 )
Seat 1: PokGaiDui ( $35.1 )
Seat 4: GRYNDIR ( $94 )
Seat 3: gkramerica1 ( $117.55 )
GRYNDIR posts small blind [$0.5].
penisula posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to TheSqueeze79 [ 4c 4d]
scottfox777 calls [$1].
PokGaiDui folds.
TheSqueeze79 calls [$1].
gkramerica1 folds.
GRYNDIR calls [$0.5].
penisula checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 3c, Kh]
GRYNDIR checks.
penisula checks.
scottfox777 checks.
TheSqueeze79 bets [$3].
GRYNDIR calls [$3].
penisula calls [$3].
scottfox777 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc]
GRYNDIR checks.
penisula checks.
TheSqueeze79 bets [$12].
GRYNDIR folds.
penisula calls [$12].
** Dealing River ** [ Qh]
penisula is all-In [$134.9]
TheSqueeze79 is all-In.
penisula shows [ 5s, 2s] high card king.
TheSqueeze79 shows [ 4c, 4d] three of a kind, fours.
penisula wins $9.4 from side pot #1 with high card king.
TheSqueeze79 wins $286 from the main pot with three of a kind, fours.

Quite clearly he tried to represent the flush and tried to bluff the pot on the river. If it was the Fitz 25, not a player would have folded

It was actually a good bluff attempt the river complete a variety of scare hands and some players might actually fold a set here.

This thread is getting boring

Hectorjelly

Samba wrote:

How many flops will you have to see before you flop your monster?

Not that many. I could work it out but I dont see the point. The fact the remains that if you are a better player than the other it makes sense to use that edge were it counts, and that means playing post flop. If you are a good player then almost any flop is + EV. If you flop a flush draw its +EV. If you flop 2 pair its + EV, and so on.

Samba wrote:

The starting hand is the problem Hector.

No its not.

Samba wrote:

As I pointed out and you obviously did not read if he had JJ he would have raised very big and 108 would be faced with a pot sized bet at this point I very much doubt he would have called and seen that flop.

1 - You want T8 in the hand. You want T8 to call your all in on the flop.
2 - I dont know about you but I would almost never reraise with JJ in a cash game

Samba wrote:

In short you are both suggesting that you should just join the gamble/muppet fest and hope for luck to pay off.

If by that you mean you want to flop a disguised monster and then stack someone who overplays top pair then yes, I agree.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

I beg to differ.

TheSqueeze79 shows [ 4c, 4d] three of a kind, fours.
penisula wins $9.4 from side pot #1 with high card king.
TheSqueeze79 wins $286 from the main pot with three of a kind, fours.

I have a more relevant one. Playing drunk in Vegas, its 7 am and at a very deep stacked game with a mixture of very good and very bad players. I have J9o an limp in the cutoff for $2 after everyone at the table has limped. I have about 900$ behind and the average at the table is probably 3-500.

The button makes it $20. Everyone at the table calls, and I say well Im almost embaressed calling a raise with this, but since I was getting 8-1 and closing the action folding here would be insane. I might of slurred a little.

Flop is 8 T Q rainbow. The small blind bets $80. There are two callers and I make it around $300 to go. The button beside me grumbles for a little while then folds Kings. The small blind then goes all in for around $500. Folded to me and I call. He has KQ! and has an equity in the pot of 5%. So because I put $20 in preflop with equity of probably around $10 or so, I got my opponent to put nearly $600 in on the flop with an equity of 5%. So in fact he took out his wallet and handed me $570.

Samba

2 - I dont know about you but I would almost never reraise with JJ in a cash game

In this situation if you had JJ you would be stupid not to raise it, 6 other people are seeing the flop, you want to find out what you are up against, most have flat called so they are obviously weak your only worry is the original raiser. You have to thin the field.

But no, normally I would not, in the above situation however I would.

Yes he was ahead, but 6 other people saw this flop which drastically increases the chances of being outdrawn.

I feel the best way to come out on top from the Fitz cash games is to play a simple game. It has worked successfully for me to date and I shall continue doing so. I understand your point of view but I feel you need to adjust your game when playing in the fitz as if you play for odds you can very quickly lose your tank when you consider how quick pots can grow in size.

NickyOD

Samba wrote:

In this situation if you had JJ you would be stupid not to raise it, 6 other people are seeing the flop, you want to find out what you are up against, most have flat called so they are obviously weak your only worry is the original raiser. You have to thin the field.
QUOTE]

with 6 players in front of me I think raising with JJ would be somehat suicidal out of position. By how much do you think you can thin the field and are you going to close your eyes and hope for a ten high flop when you're first to act?

Samba

i have about €55 and in late position.

:rolleyes:

Hectorjelly

Samba wrote:

I feel the best way to come out on top from the Fitz cash games is to play a simple game. It has worked successfully for me to date and I shall continue doing so. I understand your point of view but I feel you need to adjust your game when playing in the fitz as if you play for odds you can very quickly lose your tank when you consider how quick pots can grow in size.

Playing a very tight game and waiting to hit sets will work and it would be very hard to be a loser doing this against bad players, but you can make more money by opening up and playing more hands.

Samba

Hectorjelly wrote:

Playing a very tight game and waiting to hit sets will work and it would be very hard to be a loser doing this against bad players, but you can make more money by opening up and playing more hands.

Agreed, this can also lead to further loss but I take your point that in the long run you will be up provided you play the hands well post flop.

I have a tendancy to be short sighted when it comes to poker it's a flaw in my game and there are many pots I could have won, I suppose I remember the pots where I did get involved with marginal hands and lost come the river more so than pots I took down making these calls.

Lafortezza

I've played the €25 games a couple of times. One of it's big problems is that it is a very short-stacked game to begin with. Once there's a raise preflop and a couple of callers then the next move for at least one of those players is all-in on the flop.

Depending on the table I'd play looser than normal, compared to the main hold'em/omaha cash games in the fitz anyway.
The reason is that it's mostly youngsters/students/less experienced players playing, all they really want to do is limp with trash and hit some big hands, they don't have the patience/time/bankroll (usually) to wait around and play tight and be willing to fold good hands.

I went from €25 to €450 in one evening at this €25 table, thanks mostly to some terribly loose/bad players and a decent run of cards. But I was playing nearly every hand of any value. 56s, any suited A, KTo or better because I knew I could play better post-flop than the rest of the table, and I knew their starting hands were actually worse than mine.

One other thing is that when you're playing live you see so many fewer hands compared to cash games online that you need to play more loosely against certain opponents and tables or you might not beat the rake/blinds.

RoundTower

Davey Devil wrote:

Your biggest mistake was playing in that 25 game.

The 25 game is the most fun game in the whole world.

Davey Devil

I don't play poker for fun.

Hectorjelly

Davey Devil wrote:

I don't play poker for fun.

Its for the women isnt it

RoundTower

Well, we figured there was more money on that table, 6 handed, at one point than there would be when the €50 round of each started. It also had Robbie, Joe Gibbens and Vincenzo waiting for the very big €50 omaha...