Has anyone here joined the IPSA

Dvs

Hello All,
I would like to ask,has anyone here joined the IPSA?
with respect to the founder members,
I would like to hear only from new members,who joined since it was announced here on the boards.ie.

What are your impressions of the IPSA?

Is it worth joining?

what if anything, is the IPSA doing for practical pistol shooting in the Republic of Ireland?

this is not meant as a dig at the IPSA so please do not take it as such,
its just, I have not heard anything about it since the initial announcement.

Dvs

Flattop 15

I joined it.AFIK they are looking for a range and there was/is supposedly somthing going to occur with MRC.They did hold an open day introductory shoot up in NI in May.Trouble is,it is early days yet,and things is progressing slowly.So I wouldnt expect wonders just yet,what with our police supers taking their respective attitudes to granting pistol liscenses.

Sparks

Haven't joined it, but that's because I've got issues with shooting anything, be it guns, bows or tiddlywinks, at a human or humanoid target. I am glad, however, to see a seperate autonomous governing body for practical pistol - this malarky with the NRPAI (or certain individuals therein) trying to act as a governing body was just unacceptable. And the ISPA does seem to be taking safety as the main concern, which is reassuring - practical pistol has got some serious problems to address on the PR front, and that's one of the best ways of doing it.

As to whether it's worth joining, well, are you interested in shooting competitively? Because if you are, and you want to go abroad, they're the only group that can send a national team, as they are the ones recognised by the IPSC. Same as the NTSA & ICPSA are the ones recognised by ISSF, and the NSA by the IMSSU.

Dvs

Hello Sparks,
with the greatest respect to you and your opinions on practical shooting,
it really is getting old that everytime practical shooting is mentioned you feel obliged to express your personal view that, shooting humaniod targets is bad !and not to mention your ongoing, have a bash at the SSAI vendeta.

<quote>
"but that's because I've got issues with shooting anything, be it guns, bows or tiddlywinks, at a human or humanoid target. I am glad, however, to see a seperate autonomous governing body for practical pistol - this malarky with the NRPAI (or certain individuals therein) trying to act as a governing body was just unacceptable."</quote>

Nobody else here that I am aware of keeps rehashing their opinions to this extent.
if you don't like practical shooting, good for you ,
but everyone here is aware of your opinion,
please refrain from restating it, again and again.

I and many others here who have no interest in the air rifle shooting that you are involved in,don't feel the need to have a swipe at it,
just because we might not want to do it, or see the point of it!



Dvs

macnas

Citizen_Erased

Dvs wrote:

or see the point of it!

I hate to ask this but what is the point? Surely , the only benefit of shooting humanoids is for military or gardai personnel. Otherwise its only use is to increase your ability to harm another being. They should be outlawed imo.

jaycee

C'mon guy's ..

let's not get into that most traditional of Irish sports...
I.e. "Fighting amongst ourselves "

I think that while we may have diverse opinions on various aspects of shooting,and have the right to express our likes and our dislikes.
That is in the best spirit of democracy.

The notion of agreeing to differ on our differences, is what should make our voices even more united in the face of those who would oppose all forms of our sport .

I used the phrase "Our sport" as a deliberate reminder that air-powered or powder - powered ..it is all shooting as far as I am concerned.

It all deserves our support ..if not our personal enjoyment of each form that it takes.

macnas

Dvs

Citizen_Erased wrote:

I hate to ask this but what is the point?

The point, is personal choice of the shooting sport you wish to take part in.

Citizen_Erased wrote:

Surely , the only benefit of shooting humanoids is for military or gardai personnel. Otherwise its only use is to increase your ability to harm another being.

This is the most hilarious thing i've heard,
IPSC is an internationally recognised sport practiced worldwide,
perhaps you are unaware of that?
If you take your thinking to it's logical conclusion,everything shaped like a circle that exist in the world would be in danger, from people shooting circular targets in their shooting sport,how could they stop themselves from shooting them?

(See circle, must shoot, can't stop myself!!!!!) :rolleyes:

Martial artists could not be permitted to mix with others in society,
incase they could not resist the overpowering urge to beat people to a pulp.

Butchers would have to be restrained from butchering every living thing.

If you really think that you could not shoot a humaniod shaped target, without being somehow turned into a threat to society and a killing machine.

Then this does not speak well of you as a person,
and may require professional help.

I doubt this is in fact the case.

Citizen_Erased wrote:

They should be outlawed imo.

Ha Ha Ha !
so if you don't like it outlaw it!
a very open minded approach to others. :rolleyes:

Dvs

Dvs

jaycee wrote:

C'mon guy's ..

let's not get into that most traditional of Irish sports...
I.e. "Fighting amongst ourselves "

I think that while we may have diverse opinions on various aspects of shooting,and have the right to express our likes and our dislikes.
That is in the best spirit of democracy.

The notion of agreeing to differ on our differences, is what should make our voices even more united in the face of those who would oppose all forms of our sport .

jaycee,
I personally do not draw any distinction between one shooting sport and another,and I fully support others right to take part in them,
even if i would not like to.

It is to the benefit of all those of us involved in shooting to present a united front with all shooting sports.

This however cuts both ways,and my objections to the comments about practical shooting being restated at every opportunity, by sparks, are reasonable.

I have no problem with agreeing to differ,but it counts for nothing, if the other parties,continue differing in public on this forum at every opportunity.

Dvs.

Citizen_Erased

Okay. Thats fine. I respect your opinion that its healthy for someone with access to firearms to pretend to and learn how to shoot at other humans. Whatever...

Dvs

Citizen_Erased wrote:

Okay. Thats fine. I respect your opinion that its healthy for someone with access to firearms to pretend to and learn how to shoot at other humans. Whatever...

Okay, thats fine,
I appreciate you are unable to distinguish between a taking part in a recognised shooting sport, and being incapable of stopping oneself taking part in the commission of a criminal act.

Perhaps,a career in the media or politics beckons you. :rolleyes:

now do you mind, if this thread could revert back to my original question.

Many thank's

Dvs

sidneyreilly

Citizen_Erased wrote:

I hate to ask this but what is the point? Surely , the only benefit of shooting humanoids is for military or gardai personnel. Otherwise its only use is to increase your ability to harm another being. They should be outlawed imo.

Ah lads, if you follow that line of thinking then why stop there, lets ban toy sucker dart guns, playstations and make kids playing soldiers a subversive act

Sparks

DvS,
You did ask for opinions!
And frankly, there's a reason I keep stating my personal position on practical pistol - namely that after the Tirol Open incident, I've learnt that it was spread around that I was vehemently opposed to practical pistol and hated its very existance and thought that anyone who shot it was a nutter.
Now, given that I said very explicitly (and it's still up on the board if anyone ever wanted to check) that my problem with the Tirol Open was with the people who organised the team, and not with the shooters who went off, I'm a bit miffed over this. And so I restate my personal position on the matter whenever it comes up in the perhaps-in-vain hope that those who got lied to about what I thought of the discipline will learn that they were lied to.

On top of that, I'm trying to be concious of the fact that we're trying to run a forum for all disciplines to be able to chat in as equals, and I don't want people to think that I'd go editing or deleting posts because of a personal bias against their discipline.

Dvs

No sparks ,
I did not ask for opinions! on the topics you covered.

I asked,
What are your impressions of the IPSA?

Is it worth joining?

what if anything, is the IPSA doing for practical shooting in the Republic of Ireland?

Not requests for opinions on the sport of practical shooting or the type of targets used,or the SSAI's role in shooting sports!

Have a look at virtually every thread that mentions practical shooting and you restate this opinion everytime.

so please do us all a favour, and give it a rest!

Dvs

gouda

Dvs wrote:

Have a look at virtually every thread that mentions practical shooting and you restate this opinion everytime.

so please do us all a favour, and give it a rest!

Well said!!

Flattop 15

Citizen_Erased wrote:

Okay. Thats fine. I respect your opinion that its healthy for someone with access to firearms to pretend to and learn how to shoot at other humans. Whatever...

And you dont think you could learn this by shooting at bullseye targets???
Or sitting down for a couple of days and having a go at Grand theft Auto Vice city,or maybe learn some tactics by playing Navy Seals SOCOM?Most of these games are derivatives fromUS military combat simulators[with better graphics DOOM being the most famous].
Folks,may I suggest you do a web search for "Mr Turkey" targets.These are the newest three dimensional police targets.They have an outer pic of a hoodlum,under that, the pics of the vital organs,under that, the skeleton.
They have been banned by at least a half dozen countries,even to their police forces!These are the ones you want for learning how to kill people,not a glorified odd shaped bullseye.
And please dont bring up the old chestnut that practical pistol,rifle and shotgun can train you in better shooting tactics,that will beat any SWAT squad!You dont start a gunfight with your hands on your head for example].As one who has done BG work and trained with police tactics,I can assure all and sundry that practical shooting and real life tactics are as different as chalk and cheese.

Citizen_Erased

I'm refaring only to the holders of firearms not sticky dart guns etc... They may learn but are only a danger when they obtain a firearm.

Well then if there is no difference why dont you make a lot of people happier , more than likely the government included by shooting circle? You said they are they same thing so why do you chose they one that make people think "hooloigan" or "Criminal" . Tell me one reason why Human/oid targets are better than standard targets otherwise I'm not going to waste my time argueing the matter. (and that is not from a military or police perspective btw)

Dvs

Citizen_Erased,
I had a look at your previous posts in your profile,
the one that really caught my attention was the one about your junior cert geography paper, that you sat this year in june 2005.

While I commend, your apparent conviction to your ideals and opinons,
these are nearly always more informed and tempered, with a little life experience.

And I feel your belief that shooting humaniod targets is training to shoot people is obviously flawed, as you according to your posts play a great deal of computer shooting games (metal gear solid etc.)with no adverse psycologicial effects!

Also I doubt playing grand theft auto, has driven you to steal cars!


In answer to your question,
<quote>
Tell me one reason why Human/oid targets are better than standard targets otherwise I'm not going to waste my time argueing the matter. (and that is not from a military or police perspective btw)

</quote>

Because these are the targets for the shooting sport in question IPSC !

And if you were shooting smallbore rifle, or fita archery they would not be the targets for the sport in question! and would not therefore be suitable for those sports.


Dvs.

Chipboard

Dvs wrote:

Citizen_Erased,
was the one about your junior cert geography paper, that you sat this year in june 2005

An excellent retort Dvs.

I sent off my application for IPSA today and thought I might get the lowdown on what I can expect in this thread, but so far its been fruitless. You cant ask a straight question and get a straight answer anymore, can you?

Gun Shy

Dvs wrote:

Hello All,
I would like to ask,has anyone here joined the IPSA?
with respect to the founder members,
I would like to hear only from new members,who joined since it was announced here on the boards.ie.
Dvs

Citizen_Erased

What , you think your automatically more responsible than me because you're older? Im leagally allowed to use and own a firearm , if that was what you were getting at.

And your reason for shooting the target just seems utterly childish to me. Because thats why , is what it seemed to be. So for that reason , I see no need to argue with because you cannot , even yourself , provide a genuine reason for using such targets over standard one.

(ps WTF , looking up my post history , how much do you suck ,that because you couldnt answer my question that you went to dig up dirt on me?)

Sparks

Okay, enough of that. Play the ball, not the man. That's the moderator hat I'm wearing now.

Dvs

Citizen_Erased,
I'm sure if you re-read my post you would see i did answer your question.


In answer to your question,
<quote>
Tell me one reason why Human/oid targets are better than standard targets otherwise I'm not going to waste my time argueing the matter. (and that is not from a military or police perspective btw)

</quote>

Because these are the targets for the shooting sport in question IPSC !

And if you were shooting smallbore rifle, or fita archery they would not be the targets for the sport in question! and would not therefore be suitable for those sports.


Gunshy,
I, as I said in my original post,
mean no disrespect to you and your fellow founders,
I just want to hear from others who have joined since it was formed.

Dvs.

Citizen_Erased

That still isnt answer. Look , enough is enough and no one is getting anywhere here. Lets just call it a day.

Gun Shy

Dvs wrote:

Citizen_Erased,
Gunshy,
I, as I said in my original post,
mean no disrespect to you and your fellow founders,
I just want to hear from others who have joined since it was formed.
Dvs.

Dvs

Citizen_Erased,
then on this issue we can respectfully differ.

Regards,
Dvs.

Sparks,
It is something of a conflict of interest, to put on you moderators hat in a thread that you hijacked in the first instance.

Now if somebody could please let us know the answers to my initial questions,
I would be very glad.

chipboard,
please inform the board of how your membership of the IPSA helps you in your pistol shooting endeavours.


Since,
nobody has really been willing or able to tell me how things are going for the IPSA,then maybe one of the founder members, could enlighten us as to progress and such.

Dvs.

Sparks

It is something of a conflict of interest, to put on you moderators hat in a thread that you hijacked in the first instance.

Not over an ad hominem line of postings, it's not. Civ would have said the same thing, in fact any moderator on the site in any of the forums would have done so. CE's age doesn't invalidate his opinions. They might be wrong, they might be right - but either way, it's not going to be determined by his age.

Dvs

Sparks wrote:

Not over an ad hominem line of postings, it's not. Civ would have said the same thing, in fact any moderator on the site in any of the forums would have done so. CE's age doesn't invalidate his opinions. They might be wrong, they might be right - but either way, it's not going to be determined by his age.

I never said his age invalidated his opinions,
only that life experience might temper them somewhat.

I also, pointed out, that his own experience of computer games featuring shooting people, and stealing cars had not turned him into a threat to society unable to distinguish between game and real life!

this in my opinion invalidates his argument.

Dvs.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

Citizen_Erased

Games never really do that to people. They have it in them already , just maybe the games bring it out or the media makes the link. Of course though they can affect young children but that is why they are not intended for them.

People cant guess may age until I tell them. Their reactions are annoying and they change their attitude towards just completely because of it. It happens ion the real world too because I dont look my age. It just shows how eird the heirarchy of society works.

I am more than happy to agree to disagree before this gets to personnel and peoples reputations get damaged.

Gun Shy

Dvs wrote:

Citizen_Erased,
Since,
nobody has really been willing or able to tell me how things are going for the IPSA,then maybe one of the founder members, could enlighten us as to progress and such.
Dvs.

Hi dont really want to go in too deep here as I'm just compiling the Members Newsletter which should be mailed to members and posted on our site http://www.ipsc-ireland.org/ by the weekend and dont want to be repeating myself. (Hope you can wait till then)

I'll put a post here to let ye all know when its up

Basically there are 39 members as of tonight and quite a few in the pipeline (one female I am delighted to say and hopefully more will join the ranks).

We have always said from the start that we would not be holding any IPSC competitions until such time as we had the qualified Range Officers to manage such an event safely. Just quite recently 5 members including myself took part in a 2 day IPSC Range Officers Course and all 5 successfully passed with flying colours.

A large number have taken part in the Basic and Competition Courses and there has been a high success rate again this is a two day course.

With the Midlands getting the official go ahead last friday we can now set our sights on providing IPSC Basic and Competition Courses for the first time down South.

Have to remember also that we wouldnt have even got this far this quick if it wasnt for the guys in NITSA bending over backwards for us.

Sparks said (in a nutshell)

"As to whether it's worth joining, well, are you interested in shooting competitively? Because if you are, and you want to go abroad, they're the only group that can send a national team, as they are the ones recognised by the IPSC."

And not just abroad, to compete here you will have to be a member of an IPSC recognised region in our case IPSA or UKPSA and have compleated a competition course

Just the highlights hope you read the newsletter and I can be contacted directly off our website.

oldzed

Now that the post has returned to the original Topic and The IPSA Founders have been asked in , I would just like to add my 2 cents on the Targets . The IPSA did not invent the Targets we use , These targets are in use by over 70,000 Ipsc members worldwide in over 80 countries, We could Theoretically use a different set of targets here but it would put us at a huge disadvantage when we Travel abroad to compete as you would have to adjust to firing at something you are not used to . This would be no different than trying to make sparks change the target he shoots at from a circle to a square because somebody does not like people firing at circles.We will continue to use the targets mandated for use by us by our international governing bodies, just as The issf will use their targets and The Sil shooters (including me) will use theirs . If we change our targets we would also be left in the position that we could never hold an internationally sanctioned match and that is what we are about, namely to produce world class well trained and safe shooters that we can dispatch to competitions at home and abroad to represent our country and hopefully start winning some prizes.
On a personal level (not an IPSA View ) the whole political correctness crap is getting out of hand , This rubbish will end the shooting sports permanently if its not kept in check , it seeps in and starts killing of disciplines one by one , Only this year the running boar was knocked from the olympic list , and that had been watered down from a boar silhouette to a circle not so long ago . If we keep going the way of political correctness the likes of rebecca peters and the anti gunners will be delighted when we are all firing cork guns at coke cans, and then she can repeat her comment to the uk pistol shooters, 'Im sorry you lost your hobby go find another one '.

Sparks

Only this year the running boar was knocked from the olympic list , and that had been watered down from a boar silhouette to a circle not so long ago .

Only for the 10m version of the event, the 50m still uses a picture of a boar. Mind you, I've not heard of a 50m running target match in years, the 10m version just blew it out of the water in popularity terms in Germany (which was pretty much the home of running target). Whatever we may feel about political correctness, some people just don't dig some things. *shrug* That's people for ye.

And btw, the reason that 10m running target was dropped was that there weren't enough beds in the Olympic Village and some events had to be dropped. The two least popular events in terms of participation levels (Women's Double Trap and 10m Running Target) got it in the neck as a result. But this is more to do with how TV presents the sport than anything else.

Flattop 15

Citizen_Erased wrote:

Games never really do that to people. They have it in them already , just maybe the games bring it out or the media makes the link. Of course though they can affect young children but that is why they are not intended for them.

I'm sorry citizen,you are very wrong there.As I said before these "Games"were and are developed from US/UK military training combat simulators,as have some of the police tactic traninig simulators.DOOM being the direct link between the US milspec training aid and the civillian shoot em up.AFIK DOOM was an acrynom for it's USmil usage code.
Now ,why would the military want to have their troops playing console games?Word is DESENSIVITY.To take an ordinary person off the streets and then turn them into a ruthless killing machine[aka soilder]you must break them down mentally,physically and emotionally and rebuild them as to what you want them to be.To do that you use as many "training aids" as possible,good example is bayonet training ,you paint a symbol of your enemy on the straw sack and teac your budding soilder to ram as violently as possble his knife into it.End product of military training is a person who will kill instinctively or on command and as efficently as possible his/hers govts chosen enemy.What has this got to do with a playstation game?As stated the game desentitises you.Change your monster for a uniformed enemy and add blood and gore and you have a brilliantly cheap training aid.Dont think it is a platoon of squaddies playing with a playstation 2.It is a very elaborate 360degree cinema.[Quite impressive bit of kit I am told.] So,if you can put human faces on your enemy and their uniform in a training aid you have a much quicker and better way of training your troops,with also alot less risks to them and wastage in training of manpower.
Now lets put this in a civillian context. A military training aid that has been jazzed up with cool graphics ,etc is now being sold by the million fold to all and sundry.Much as we would like it in a perfect world childtrn would not have access to knives,or guns or drugs or violent films or Dads bottom sock drawer magazine collection.Trouble is,it isnt a perfect world,so kids do get access to these things.So they do play,read,cut or reenact somthing from a movie.The Jamie Bolger case in the UK with the connection to that really stupid horror movie,being a proven link.Parents are to blame to a point, as it requires a 24/7/365 task to be a good one.[Hence the reason I am going to do my damnest not to be one].How many teens are walking today talking and acting like South central LA gangstas and if given a "piece" would know how to operate it or shoot it from watching and playing some of the more modern PS2 games?Not only that ask the military how much time and money they spend "re civvieing" their troops to get them back out into normal lives.They will candidly admitthat 75/90% of their troops being demobbed will never loose their training or tactics.It's quite intresting to note that from personal experiance of mil personel who are demobbed.They will NOT allow their kids or themselves to have any type of video game in the house or access to it.
That might be saying somthing.

Point I am trying to make here is,you have a better chance of desentiseing yourself and learning tactics from the games than from a practical pistol course.
As to your question about the targets.The sport originated as a training aid back in the 60s in the USA. In the US people arent too delicate in their worries on wether it was a man target or a bullseye.So the target[as it certainly has no resembelance to a human target anymore,profile or otherwise]is now not revelant.Call it a hangover from the 60s.If you look at rapid fire pistol targets,they also have a humaniod shape,but no one freaks at them.Yet rapid fire pistol was also a derivative from combat disiplines of the last centuary.As any politican will tell you the great unwashed will make up their minds on an issue themselves,and you wont change it.
You have made yours up on ours,as you are entitled to,but please dont try and stop us.As one day somone might be attacking your disipline,and you might find damn few people who will come to help you.

Sparks

Not to level criticism where it's not needed flattop, but you've gotten one or two things incorrect there. Doom wasn't a military project - it was adopted later by the military for training in squad-level fire-and-cover tactics, but they then went off and wrote their own (America's Army if I remember right). And the target for rapid fire pistol is not a humanoid target, it's this:


Also, I'm not sure, but I thought the IPSC target wasn't changed until recently (I think the late 90's but I can't be sure), as a part of the IPSC's bid for olympic recognition? I know that the 1500/PPC target certainly wasn't changed until recently and then only in the european version of the game, the US still use human silhouettes rather than the abstracted humanoid version we see in Europe.

And on the video games, there is valid research showing that violent video games do desensitise people to violence. Or, as someone put it once, "if video games affected people, all those kids from the 70s would be running around in dark rooms popping pills and listening to wierd music" And I know from personal experience that you do notice a change in your mindset from training in martial arts for any length of time (though happily, the effect tends to wear off the further you get from puberty as your hormonal levels settle down, something the car insurance companies would give you a long lecture on if you ever ask why their premiums are so high for males aged 16-24...).

Flattop 15

Ok Sparks,I got that one Re Doom bass ackwards.
But then tell us what are the targets used in rapid fire that are as best described as "coffin shaped"[Cant find a pic of them].Unless they have been changed very recently for a bullseye,last time I saw them in use was the previous olympics eight years ago.?

Ammoman

Gun Shy wrote:

With the Midlands getting the official go ahead last friday we can now set our sights on providing IPSC Basic and Competition Courses for the first time down South.

its nice of the midlands to notify their members before you .... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: , Typical of MRC yet again treat the members with contempt at every turn .

this must be the 3rd or 4th time that they have got the official go ahead , I think that you should confirm the fact before you plan to arrange use of the range.... :mad:

Sparks

Flattop 15 wrote:

But then tell us what are the targets used in rapid fire that are as best described as "coffin shaped"[Cant find a pic of them].Unless they have been changed very recently for a bullseye,last time I saw them in use was the previous olympics eight years ago.?

8 years ago? Er, no... the targets changed from ovals to circles in 1989. Showing yer age there m'lad

Citizen_Erased

I have no idea what this thread has turned into but if i may bring back the subject of video games , I was not refaring to "desesnsitising" people for killing but causing people to go postal. I'm sure that playing games and advanced military simulations can change a person mindset and soften their first kill , but I don't think they are capable of sending normal , mentally sound people into rages which may cause them to go on a rampage with a weapon and take their own life and those of others. That is usually people who have been broken down by other aspects such as a mental disorder or an incredibly emotionally damaging situation such as their marriage breaking up. Of course though , not everyone is the same , and there are always exceptions to the rule but from my own experience I had played many games for long periods of time eg the media favorite gta , the previously mentioned Doom and lots of other games of similar nature but when I killed my first animal it still had an incredible effect on me and was nothing anygame could really prepare you for. Human nature , unfortunately is not predicible and rarely follow anygiven trend so there will naturally be so many differant opinions on how it works.

civdef

This thread is about the IPSA - it isn't about video games, desensitisation, or whatever else. Let's keep it that way.

Flattop 15

All I was pointing to Citizen et all was that there are better methods and things out there to desentise onesel to "going postal" than participating in a regulated sort.
Nuff said.

Dvs

Hello Gun Shy,
thanks for the update on the IPSA,
I look forward to reading more on your website.

Regards,
Dvs.