M50 joke of a road

murphaph

I was driving from Blanch to Swords this evening and there was chaos at the M50 J6 (N3). There was a pi$$y bit of rain which led to flash flooding and lane closures. It wasn't lashing, I live near the junction. The drainage is inadequate in design/construction or blocked due to lack of cleaning and that's a joke.

At least the VMS displays were giving advice to get off the motoway if possible, which I did on the return journey and the motorway was still chaotic back to J5.

DubTony

Seems that flooding was all across that area. Castleknock village had houses flooded. Palmerstown, Blanchardstown, Strawberry Beds (Angler's Rest was flooded) Chapelizod and Ballyfermot. Freak weather. There was about 20 minutes of torrential rain. Wasn't just an M50 thing.

murphaph

DubTony wrote:

Seems that flooding was all across that area. Castleknock village had houses flooded. Palmerstown, Blanchardstown, Strawberry Beds (Angler's Rest was flooded) Chapelizod and Ballyfermot. Freak weather. There was about 20 minutes of torrential rain. Wasn't just an M50 thing.

The M50 is a new road and shouldn't be needing lane closures because of some rain. I live near there, it wasn't torrential at all.

DubTony

eh .... no. At the risk of arguing about something silly i.e. the weather. (My rain's wetter than yours ...na na nanaa na :rolleyes:) It was definitely torrential. I know it was torrential because my friend rang me from Chapelizod and I could hear the rain on the roof of his car. And he said "Tony, there's torrential rain here". So there ....

davidoco

I was on the M50 around 7 pm and it was bucketing down. The heaviest rain I have ever seen in Ireland. Traffic on the M50 was down to 10 to 15 mph or whatever that is in kph. It lasted at least 30 minutes. You couldn't see more than 20 to 30 feet in front of you.

There was a poor guy in a merc convertable that was frantically trying to get his hood back up. emmm ha.

murphaph

Ah Tony, that's only hearsay ;-)

I just don't feel it's appropriate that the drainage system was so easily overwhelmed on a new road with at least 20' of head between it's lowest point and the Tolka into which it runs off. The design of the road means that there's a sump under J6, this should have been abundantly clear at the design stage and I would have expected adequately specified drainage to cope with even the most torrential rainfall running into this sump. It may well be adequate in design & installation but just blocked due to poor highways maintenance (a la what happened on the N3 a year or two back).

Calina

I seem to recall the M50 being completely un-passable at Junction 6 a couple of years ago due to flooding. This is not unique.

SouperComputer

ive gotten a nice aquaplane a couple of times going south after Blanch. Still nothing done about it though.

DubTony

Philip, I hesitate to get into another argument on these boards ... so i won't

I'm just kidding, I love arguments

As for the M50 being a sh!te road, you're dead right. From what I can see it drains off into stones at the side of the road. In the UK I've seen a long shore / drain thingy running the full length of the shoulder. This certainly makes a lot more sense.

As for motorway maintenance. Isn't that when they come along every few years and put cones down and make us all drive in one lane - even when there's no work being done.

Anyway, the rest of the crappy M50 (sans l'eau ... hopefully) opens in an hour and a bit. I think I'll go for a walk and watch idiots rubberneck all the way to Bray ....... from a safe distance obviously.

murphaph

Enjoy Tony!

I was just talking to a friend about those 'soakaways' along the M50, especially lethal are the large puddles that seem to gather on certain stretches of the overtaking lane even under 'normal' weather conditions. Especially between J6 and the Toll Plaza southbound.

Anyway-please God this latest little bit is a bit better in terms of drainage anyway.

Alun

There's a section of the M11 northbound on a shallow right hand bend that floods at the slightest excuse too. I know it's there by now, so when it rains I know to slow down just there, but it's completely unacceptable IMO.

beller b

Was sitting in traffic at leopardstown for 45 minutes this morning... There was a nice new section of road in front of me not opened till 4 o clock,must be the only time Bertie was available, or maybe the Ascon boys wanted thier few hours of fun, cause while the rest of us were sitting in traffic they were joyriding & racing each other in thier jeeps... If the road is ready why not just open it & get on with it ,??? the traffic is bad enough

highdef

Have to admit that there are parts of the M50 where water does collect into big and potentially dangerous puddles. But with regards to yesterdays rain - This was extremely localised. So much so that after I joined the M50 yesterday evening at the M1, it was completely dry. However, before the Ballymun turnoff (where I was turning off), there was literally a wall of water in front. As in, dry on one part of the road, monsoon like 20 foot on. Traffic dropped down to a crawl and when I was returning back northbound, I went from flooded road to dry in the space of about 100 feet. I can say the rain was amazingly heavy. If I hadn't been turning off at first exit, I would probably have pulled over as I could see zilch in front of me. Wipers at full speed were not nearly good enough. Not only were other drivers not putting on their fogs so I could make them out but most drivers didn't even put their headlights making the situation even more dangerous.

So whilst it may not have rained where you were, it's very possible that there were floods a couple of hundred feet away. It would have taken some drainage system to cope with volume of rain that fell there yesterday.

Gegerty

For a country that rains all the time you'd think proper drainage would be a priority, its not that difficult or expensive to do.

beller b

The whole of Dublin is a joke when it comes to a drop of rain, the place comes to a standstill.If we get an inch of snow we all might as well take a day or 2 off.....How come every other country manages?

positron

Yeah, its a shame that M50 can't cope with some rain - but it was quite a downpour though - I have years of first hand experience of driving/cycling/walking in the torrential tropical monsoons (proper rains – unlike the heavy-drizzle that we usually get here), but yesterday evenings was a different class!

I was stuck in Phoenix Park / Castleknock Village for hours! Drainage pipes, I guess, burst out and the road was in pieces in front of the Myo pub – there were at least half a dozen cars that cr*pped out in the rain in Castleknock village alone! You could hardly see anything even with wiper on full speed!

Funny thing is, the rain was very local - sitting in traffic in Phoenix Park I could see it lashing over Castleknock for ages and not a drop where I was!

Alun

Yeah, any drainage system, however well designed and built can only cope with a maximum amount of water, and if it gets more than that it overflows, simple. You're not going to specify a system that can cope with a freak situation that might only occur once every 5 or 10 years, it would cost a fortune. I used to live in Holland, a country that, I think you'll admit, knows how to deal with water, and the estate I lived in once flooded to a depth of about a foot once after such a freak weather event overwhelmed the storm drains.

This doesn't excuse those roads in the Dublin area that flood after a relatively minor shower though, that's just down to badly designed drainage and/or bad maintenance.

DubTony

highdef wrote:

Not only were other drivers not putting on their fogs so I could make them out but most drivers didn't even put their headlights making the situation even more dangerous.

Fog lights in the rain? Jesus highdef, it must have been pretty serious weather if you think fog lights were needed. As a rule fog lights are for fog. Having said that they certainly should have used their headlights, which would have lit up the rear lights so you could see them. You have to remember though that this was during daylight hours and some people still think that turning on your lights during the day is a waste of petrol.

Victor

beller b wrote:

How come every other country manages?

http://home.eircom.net/images/newsPic/news/5831576

Cars are submerged in water outside the Pacific Fair Shopping centre at the Gold Coast after severe weather hits the south east coast of Queensland causing torrential flooding in Gold Coast, Australia.

_Kaiser_

Was coming through the park/Castleknock yesterday when it started and it was totally flooded by the time I got to Blanch. As highdef said, a lot of people didn't even bother turning on their lights (case in point the black Focus I was stuck behind and could barely see). Serious flooding but the crazy thing was how fast it cleared up afterwards.

Blanch seems to be a magnet for weird weather tho.. I remember coming home in a snowstorm that just totally disappeared by the time I got to Finglas

DubTony

That's because Blanchardstown is in the twilight zone. Where else would you pay €1.80 to cross a 200 metre bridge?

murphaph

Kaiser2000 wrote:

...I remember coming home in a snowstorm that just totally disappeared by the time I got to Finglas

What kind of 'snow' are we talkin' about Kaiser???

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote:

What kind of 'snow' are we talkin' about Kaiser???

The type that falls from the sky in winter - the occasional pint of Bulmers is my only other vice (wheres the angelic emoticon?)

beller b

Victor wrote:

http://home.eircom.net/images/newsPic/news/5831576

Point taken Victor.. But do you think maybe those places got a bit more rain than we did??

IDMUD

From what I understand snow tires are optional in Ireland? If so I can see why traffic comes to a standstill during the winter

murphaph

You could count the number of days in a year that winter tires would be any use in Ireland on 1 hand. It just doesn't get cold enough for the rubber on normal tires to become ineffective.

mackerski

murphaph wrote:

You could count the number of days in a year that winter tires would be any use in Ireland on 1 hand. It just doesn't get cold enough for the rubber on normal tires to become ineffective.

Winter tyres (grr!) are supposedly preferred once the average temperature is going to be at or below 7 degrees. That was always the rule of thumb when I was in Germany, where they are a requirement, not a luxury.

In our climate I usually put the winter tyres on once the frosty nights start up and keep them on until some time in March or whenever it looks like the mad hail and tornado season is over.

Dermot

Victor

Aren't they banned? Or is it snow chains are banned?

Alun

Why should they be? Are you referring to studded tyres maybe? These can damage roads if used in conditions where there isn't enough snow / ice to warrant them. I can't imagine snow chains being banned though, as you can put them on or take them off as required, whereas studded tyres are there for good (unless you carry around a full set of spares in the boot, that is !!!)

Winter tyres are just normal tyres, albeit usually narrower than most summer tyres, and with a nice big chunky grippy profile on them specially designed to give good grip on snow and ice. Probably overkill for 364 days of the year here in gulf stream kissed Ireland, but as others have said, more or less necessary in parts of mainland Europe.

murphaph

Alun wrote:

Winter tyres are just normal tyres, albeit usually narrower than most summer tyres, and with a nice big chunky grippy profile on them specially designed to give good grip on snow and ice. Probably overkill for 364 days of the year here in gulf stream kissed Ireland, but as others have said, more or less necessary in parts of mainland Europe.

Winter tyres often look exactly like summer tyres. The rubber compound is formulated differently though, designed to remain more tacky in colder temperatures. Summer tyres go rock hard in freezing climates and lose all their tackiness, ie, their grip. It has little to do with tread depths or anything like that.

Alun

murphaph wrote:

Winter tyres often look exactly like summer tyres. The rubber compound is formulated differently though, designed to remain more tacky in colder temperatures. Summer tyres go rock hard in freezing climates and lose all their tackiness, ie, their grip. It has little to do with tread depths or anything like that.

Hmmm, the ones I had on my cars in Germany where I lived for seven years back in the 80's certainly had a pretty chunky profile, maybe they've moved on since then. And they were certainly a good bit narrower and less low-profile than the summer tyres I had. IIRC they also had a considerably lower speed rating. The bit about the 'stickier' rubber compound is right on though.

DubTony

Alun wrote:

Hmmm, the ones I had on my cars in Germany where I lived for seven years back in the 80's certainly had a pretty chunky profile, maybe they've moved on since then. And they were certainly a good bit narrower and less low-profile than the summer tyres I had. IIRC they also had a considerably lower speed rating. The bit about the 'stickier' rubber compound is right on though.

I bought a '94 Mitsu FTO in August '98. It had snow tyres on it. Basically looked like tyres you'd see on a Pajero, but smaller. Drove around on them for about a month before I changed them. There was no noticeable difference after I put the new ones on.

murphaph

Snow tyres aren't winter tyres though. Summer tyres can fail to operate properly on a dry road when it's below freezing because the compund freezes hard and provides no tackiness to grip the road. Winter tyres don't do this because the compound is different.

You'll see the germans driving round in flash cars with crap steel wheels and winter tyres on during the winter, having taken their summer alloy wheels & tyres off. Audi TTs look particularly strange with black steel wheels and no hub-caps!

It's not a legal requirement to do this but if you have an accident you will be found partly liable if you're driving on summer tyres on a freezing day in winter!

mackerski

murphaph wrote:

It's not a legal requirement to do this but if you have an accident you will be found partly liable if you're driving on summer tyres on a freezing day in winter!

In Austria, winter tyres are mandatory below a certain mean daily temperature (4 degrees, I think).

Dermot