Overplaying AQ

Hectorjelly

Single-Table Tournament
Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
[STT] $25 NL 3681597-2 Holdem No Limit 20/40
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Hand Start.
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Seat 1 : baumer has $2,000
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Seat 2 : Dablinski has $2,000
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Seat 3 : tim8 has $2,080
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Seat 4 : lester has $1,960
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Seat 5 : azzeretti has $1,960
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Seat 6 : rinswun85 has $2,000
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Seat 7 : Insti has $2,000
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Seat 8 : hectorjelly has $2,000
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Seat 9 : sharplad has $2,000
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : lester is the dealer.
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : azzeretti posted small blind.
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : rinswun85 posted big blind.
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Game [2] started with 9 players.
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jun 26 18:52:04] : Seat 8 : hectorjelly has Jh Jc
[Jun 26 18:52:06] : Insti folded.
[Jun 26 18:52:08] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 7 min.
[Jun 26 18:52:09] : hectorjelly called 40
[Jun 26 18:52:09] : sharplad folded.
[Jun 26 18:51:42] : baumer folded.
[Jun 26 18:51:44] : Dablinski folded.
[Jun 26 18:51:45] : tim8 folded.
[Jun 26 18:51:47] : lester called 40
[Jun 26 18:51:51] : azzeretti called 20 and raised 100
[Jun 26 18:51:52] : rinswun85 folded.
[Jun 26 18:51:54] : hectorjelly called 100
[Jun 26 18:51:54] : lester called 100
[Jun 26 18:51:55] : Dealing flop.
[Jun 26 18:51:55] : Board cards [5d 2h 2d]
[Jun 26 18:51:58] : azzeretti bet 200
[Jun 26 18:51:59] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 7 min.
[Jun 26 18:52:03] : hectorjelly called 200 and raised 500
[Jun 26 18:52:06] : lester folded.
[Jun 26 18:52:08] : azzeretti called 500 and raised 1,120 and is All-in
[Jun 26 18:52:09] : hectorjelly called 1,120
[Jun 26 18:52:10] : Showdown!
[Jun 26 18:52:10] : Seat 8 : hectorjelly has Jh Jc
[Jun 26 18:52:12] : Seat 5 : azzeretti has Qc Ad
[Jun 26 18:52:12] : Seat 8 : hectorjelly has Jh Jc
[Jun 26 18:52:18] : Board cards [5d 2h 2d 9d Ah]
[Jun 26 18:52:18] : Seat 5 : azzeretti has Qc Ad
[Jun 26 18:52:18] : azzeretti has Two Pair: Aces and 2s
[Jun 26 18:52:18] : Seat 8 : hectorjelly has Jh Jc
[Jun 26 18:52:18] : hectorjelly has Two Pair: Jacks and 2s
[Jun 26 18:52:18] : azzeretti wins 4,100 with Two Pair: Aces and 2s
[Jun 26 18:52:19] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 7 min.
[Jun 26 18:52:25] : hectorjelly : idiot
[Jun 26 18:52:28] : Hand is over.
[Jun 26 18:52:28] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 6 min.

rinswun85: ouch
azzeretti: no riase pre flop?
azzeretti: had you on a low pair?
hectorjelly: why would I raise
Insti: ul
hectorjelly: I did have a low pair
azzeretti: why didn't u raise pre flop?
rinswun85: if you had him on a small pair your still miles behind
rinswun85: after that fold
rinswun85: flop even
hectorjelly: theres no difference between 88 or JJ
hectorjelly: on a 5 hi board
hectorjelly: if you have AQ
hectorjelly: you still need to hit a A or Q
azzeretti: thats correct
hectorjelly: so why call?
azzeretti: well, considering i raised pre flop...
azzeretti: with a 5 high board, and u didn't, just called
hectorjelly: so you put me on a small pair
hectorjelly: but called anyway
azzeretti: i reckon u were try to a bluff
azzeretti: thats why i went over the top
hectorjelly: a bluff wit a small pair
azzeretti: thought you'd fold
hectorjelly: you thought Id fold with nearly half my stack in the middle
azzeretti: what? you bet 500?
azzeretti: and called the intial 160?
sharplad: look, it was a bad beat, but what's new on VC? Unlucky but please just deal with it and give us all
sharplad: peace
rinswun85: i'm enjoying it. let it ride!
Dablinski: here here....makes a change its not me
Dablinski: :-)
rinswun85: its hectors job to challenge bad play
hectorjelly: I get paid for it
azzeretti: in fairness I reckon your wrong
hectorjelly: please tell me how Im wrong
azzeretti: dude, I'm not really concerned witht this at the moment, post it on boards and i'll answer it there
hectorjelly: ok sure Id love to

That third raise on the flop is quite simply awful play. He had only committed 340 chips to the pot, and now he is putting his entire stack of 2k into the pot on the flop with ace high against a probably pot committed opponent. I know its hardly the worst beat in the world but Im looking forward to hearing his explanation. "in fairness I reckon your wrong" I often find after talking to players after hands like this that they dont have any clear idea of what they're doing. They get a hand like AQ or AJ and their thought process ends there. Did I have a small pair? Was I bluffing? What colour is the sky?

I limped preflop because I want to play the hand and If I raise with jacks I cant call a reraise, I really dont want to flip a coin in level 1 for my entire stack.

azzeretti

Step by Step through my thought process, that’s the best I can do:

1) You did not raise pre flop, simply called - I couldn't possibly have you on a hand here.
2) From your point of view (from my play) I raised pre-flop and post flop with a 5 high board. As a matter of interest what did you reckon I had?
3) When you re-raised 500 and I went over - again What did you think I had?

I have not ever claimed to be a great player, I simply play with the means I have. I called it the way I saw it. In my opinion you didn't have it, that’s why I went all-in. Calling someone an idiot isn't the best way to go about a supposed "bad beat". How will that possibly make the situation any better? Just what is it you are trying to remedy here? Do you think every player needs to be fully versed in the intricacies of statistical analysis? What gives you the right to dictate how somebody should play just because you were beaten? Frankly, I am getting a little tired of players like you having a go a other players for supposed “stupid play”. I have been playing about 4-5 months and to be honest I have been doing pretty well. In must be amazing to think that the instant you started playing you were immediately gifted with your infinite knowledge of the game. Lucky you, god forbid anybody should actually have the right to go through a learning curve.
It’s people like you, with your attitude, calling me an idiot because of my play, that has people posting on this site wondering what Card Clubs are like, and will they be safe to go into them? Is it any wonder? Again, I pose the question – Just what is it you are trying to remedy? Maybe you should set up a ranking system where only players of a certain calibre should play, that way at least you’d know if you were sitting down with an idiot before you went all-in.
In all honesty though, I really do have better things to worry about.

Davey Devil

I would have called you worse, don't take it so personally.

Hectorjelly

azzeretti wrote:

Step by Step through my thought process, that’s the best I can do:

1) You did not raise pre flop, simply called - I couldn't possibly have you on a hand here.
2) From your point of view (from my play) I raised pre-flop and post flop with a 5 high board. As a matter of interest what did you reckon I had?
3) When you re-raised 500 and I went over - again What did you think I had?

1) - So you might not put me on AA - QQ but I could have any other pair or even a misplayed AK
2) - The most likely hand I thought was AK, AQ, AJ, it also could be a pair lower than Jacks or a Pair higher than jacks. Of all the available hands that you could have only 3 Beat me.
3) - At that stage the likelyhood of you having AA KK or QQ is higher, but I effectively have to call 1k off to win a 4k pot, so I would want to be almost 100% sure you had an overpair. Also very few players at this level would even contemplate folding an overpair, so you could well have 88 or 99.

azzeretti wrote:

I have not ever claimed to be a great player, I simply play with the means I have. I called it the way I saw it. In my opinion you didn't have it, that’s why I went all-in. Calling someone an idiot isn't the best way to go about a supposed "bad beat". How will that possibly make the situation any better?

There is no way to make the situation better. It makes me feel better though, but your right I shouldnt of said It. I apologise.

azzeretti wrote:

Do you think every player needs to be fully versed in the intricacies of statistical analysis?

lol

azzeretti

Like I said and the end of the post, I have better things to worry about. I certainly am not taking anything here personally. I don't really understand why Hecotr got so pi$$ed off. If he is as good as he reckons he is then a $25 STT must be nothing to him? You must of been pretty certain that your JJ was good though when I went over? Still can't get my head around why you did that, specially after I reaised preflop.
On other note, is anybody familar with the concept of bluffing

BTW,
As 2)
So it ok for you to limp with JJ, but not ok for me to raise with JJ,QQ,KK,AA?

lol

accensi0n

I like jam on toast, it's a lot tastier than butter.

Hectorjelly

azzeretti wrote:

If he is as good as he reckons he is then a $25 STT must be nothing to him?

If you fold then I have X chips and an equity of $30. Since I start with an equity of over 20% more than the nominal figure this is actually around $36.

If you call and I win I double up which gives me an equity of $46. Some of my advantage is being able to double up so my % equity is now somewhat increasd Id say its around $52 - $56.

azzeretti wrote:

You must of been pretty certain that your JJ was good though when I went over? Still can't get my head around why you did that, specially after I reaised preflop.

Since I had to call 1k to win 4k I only had to be 25% sure, allthough the fact that I can still get drawn out on makes this figure a bit more. I can laydown overpairs but I take a bit more convincing than that, I was still fairly sure I was ahead. Plus I watched the rest of the game. You lost a big hand calling bets after the flop with an unimproved AQ, then lost your medium stack getting all in with A6 against KK. These arent the actions of a player which I can happily fold an overpair getting 3:1.

azzeretti wrote:

BTW,
As 2)
So it ok for you to limp with JJ, but not ok for me to raise with JJ,QQ,KK,AA?

lol

Good players play AA for set value only.

BrendanB

Meh, so azz tried a move with overcards on a low flop in a $25 SNG, it's hardly the first time someones done it. I can't say I like the move (especially if you do figure him for a small pair, I'm not sure that'd be my read), but I'm sure I (and I;m bloody sure Hector) have pulled worse.

And can I suggest that in cases like this, having a 20 line back and forth in the chatbox about it and then saying 'I don't want to talk about it' is a bit much. Either say mind if I play your tank at the beginning or follow it through to the end.

NickyOD

Well I know what I would have called him.

Lafortezza

Hectorjelly wrote:

What colour is the sky?

Wait! Wait! I know this one!

ZZR1100

If you get beat by bad play you don’t bitch about it. I used to do this for awhile but it’s more satisfying to say gc or gb and to get a response ty .surly you want them to play bad against you.dont get deep into the game especially on the micro limits of $25 stgs . When I play these im all an with any 2 rags and equity and +ev are the farthest things from my mind.
btw. there are a lot of so called experts here who haven’t a result to their name and still call other players idiots and fuctards.
imho prove yourselves first and then criticise with some authority.
ahh the power of henniken

Hectorjelly

ZZR1100 wrote:

If you get beat by bad play you don’t bitch about it. I used to do this for awhile but it’s more satisfying to say gc or gb and to get a response ty .surly you want them to play bad against you.dont get deep into the game especially on the micro limits of $25 stgs . When I play these im all an with any 2 rags and equity and +ev are the farthest things from my mind.
btw. there are a lot of so called experts here who haven’t a result to their name and still call other players idiots and fuctards.
imho prove yourselves first and then criticise with some authority.
ahh the power of henniken

So your point here is that $25 stts are micro limits to you. Well done.

NickyOD

ZZR1100 wrote:

btw. there are a lot of so called experts here who haven’t a result to their name and still call other players idiots and fuctards.

Hey that's my word! And you have no idea what results posters here have had.

kinaldo

NickyOD wrote:

Hey that's my word! And you have no idea what results posters here have had.

let's have every poster here state their poker results and experiences before mouthing off

Shortstack

I was going to add something to this debate but I would have ended up insulting both players involved. Instead I have some words of wisdom that still may offend both:

1: A simple 'ffs' as all that is required when outdrawn. Take it like a man. When you saw his cards after he called, you were happy to be a favourite.
2: Do not encourage the fish to even think what they did is wrong.
3: Learn about basic pot odds.
4: A player who gets all their chips in as an underdog is not a 'fuctard'. they are a 'blessing'.
5: Do not play poker if you cannot take a beat.
6: Sometimes the sky is blue. somteimes it is grey, sometimes good play is rewarded and sometimes it is not. The sun always rises and the good poker player always win in the long run.
7: I should not post after drinking.

Iago

Not sure I can really add any value to this debate, for the record I think it was an ill-judged move by azzeretti, regardless of the fact that it paid off. There's no real way you can consider yourself ahead in that situation.

You raised preflop and were flat called, so A2, A5, any PP has to be a consideration. Similarly having raised preflop, your range of hands is unlikely to contain a 2 or a 5. The 200 bet is reasonable to see where you are but you should be folding to a raise in that position. The only thing you're ahead of is a bluff, and would you commit half your stack in the first few hands on a bluff against a preflop raiser and flop bet?

This is something that happens more often than not on VC at these levels, and with far worse hands. I've played a lot of games with azzeretti and he's far from the worst player on VC, there are a few "very special" players at the $25 level!

Last night I was playing a game where I lost the vast majority of my chips when I called an all-in with KK only to get outdrawn by QTo. So down to 700 with 4 players left and the blinds at 100/200, wouldn't be too long before I was out, except for the fact that I had 3 of the biggest muppets I've ever seen all on the same table. They had been outdrawing people all day,and were convinced that they were great players, one guy kept referring to himself as "a legend" so anyway I'm on the button and I have TT, I push for my measly 700 and "the legend" and his muppet crony both call
and then check down the hand. Nobody improves and my TT holds up against 73o and 97o

Next hand I'm dealt AA and I know that these guys will call so I push again, this time for 2,300. Sure enough "the legend" and the muppet both call again, this time the muppet is all-in as well. I'm up against Q9s and the mighty (but underrated) 85o. The rockets hold up and I'm chip leader. Went on to win the game from there, when I should have been dead and buried.

It's an epidemic at that level, luckily it evens out after a while.

mewso

lafortezza wrote:

Wait! Wait! I know this one!

If you say blue you're an idiot.

Juan Pablo

Iago wrote:

the mighty (but underrated) 85o.

If you call a raise with the 85, all its powers are lost. The 85 must be the aggressor.

HJ wrote:

What colour is the sky?

What is the $EV of said sky, that is the question.

Ardent

Hector, what's more telling in your original post is your lack of grace in being beat rather than how badly he played AQ.

ZZR1100

NickyOD wrote:

Hey that's my word! And you have no idea what results posters here have had.

.

i have an idea of your results.(well live anyway) fuct all.

Culchie

There is definitely something funny in the air at the moment, any astrology buffs out there to explain???

Been living on my road 5 years now, never any bother, and yesterday the flipping riot squad got called in to a house accross the street after an all night party ended (sorta) with bicycle being thrown through the living room window, and bottles being thrown at passing traffic !!
They then took on the guards who called for re-inforcments and it was like a scene from Braveheart for a while .... loo lahs.

Then Derry played Armagh in Ulster football match, and not one bad tackle in the match, everyone good buddies.

Then Doc Farrells wins a ticket in the freeroll ....

and now all this bitching on boards !!!


Something definitely funny going on.

NickyOD

ZZR1100 wrote:

.

i have an idea of your results.(well live anyway) fuct all.

Well done, you just proved my point.

Ardent

Speaking of (over) playing AQ, I was shortstacked and went all in with AQ yesterday and got called by A2. Flop came Qx2 and river threw up another 2 and I was out. That's (VC) poker.

roryc

Culchie wrote:

There is definitely something funny in the air at the moment, any astrology buffs out there to explain???

Been living on my road 5 years now, never any bother, and yesterday the flipping riot squad got called in to a house accross the street after an all night party ended (sorta) with bicycle being thrown through the living room window, and bottles being thrown at passing traffic !!
They then took on the guards who called for re-inforcments and it was like a scene from Braveheart for a while .... loo lahs..

First of all , which part of the Bronx (northside) did this all happen?

Culchie wrote:

Then Doc Farrells wins a ticket in the freeroll ....

What???? When did this happen??? Jesus, your right, somethings gone terribly wrong...... I think Jupiter is out of alignment with Venus or something... twilight zone or what

Doc you win MONEY not tickets. thats my job.... or does this mean we've swapped roles? Big game this thursday... could do with the money.

TacT

That's (VC) poker, as they say. I had the same thing happen to me at the cash tables last night on several occasions. One hand in particular which got on my wick, I get JJ and end up calling an AK raiser. The flop comes nowt but babies, I push, he calls and he rivers his ace.

yes, it's muppetry at its finest but that's the way it goes.

Hectorjelly

Ardent wrote:

Hector, what's more telling in your original post is your lack of grace in being beat rather than how badly he played AQ.

Most of the time I take it well, sometimes I call people idiots. You would think I would be used to it by now but whenever I take a beat that seems paticularly senseless I call someone a stupid name and then immediately feel better. The funny thing is that it really doesnt matter what limits Im playing at, or even if the result affects me materially. I was talking to a friend on msn a few nights ago as he played the 7.5k gtd on VC. He had a big stack but took a bad beat just before the final table. On the first hand he got KQs and it was folded to him on the button so in he pushed for around 15 big blinds. The small blind called immediatley with KJs and hit a Jack. This call was for about 3/4 of his stack and was quite simply a horrible horrible call. Straight away I felt that angry feeling at the back of the throat and actually had to restrain some of my more colourful descriptions of the guys play before I got myself chatbanned. What really gets to me is when someone plays a hand so badly thats the only rational explanation is that they are somehow in cahoots with the god of pokah to give you a bad beat.

If I had a choice of living a life of grace but badly overplaying AQ each time I got it I would need to think long and hard. Actually who am I trying to kid.

Hectorjelly

Culchie wrote:

Been living on my road 5 years now, never any bother, and yesterday the flipping riot squad got called in to a house accross the street after an all night party ended (sorta) with bicycle being thrown through the living room window, and bottles being thrown at passing traffic !!
They then took on the guards who called for re-inforcments and it was like a scene from Braveheart for a while .... loo lahs.

Wow!

Culchie

Hectorjelly wrote:

Wow!

Impressive eh ? eh?

I forgot to mention there was two idiots on the roof, one who fell onto the front lawn, looked like the O'Driscoll tackle, not very graceful, but he did get up though.

Castleknock is not what it used to be !

careca

Culchie wrote:

I forgot to mention there was two idiots on the roof,

Did they misplay AQ also

mewso

I should say by the way that even though HJ might have been a little lacking in grace with Azzetti I am in his corner for this one. I sometimes wonder why people are unwilling or seem unwilling to learn or improve their game.
From the moment I started playing Holdem for real cash I wanted to learn more. I have devoured books, discussed hands with people, constantly asked myself questions and tried to be a better poker player......
It's not working but I try. So perhaps people who feel differently, who dont read or ask questions about the game might explain to me why they feel no need to do this.

azzeretti

Hectorjelly wrote:

You lost a big hand calling bets after the flop with an unimproved AQ, then lost your medium stack getting all in with A6 against KK. These arent the actions of a player which I can happily fold an overpair getting 3:1.
.

In defense, I do agree I played some terrible hands afterwards. To be honest, you really did make me think a lot different about my play- kinda' on tilt I suppose. (The all in with A6 was when I was shortstack with about 550 left BTW, I was being blinded out fast).
I agree this play might of been a little loose on my part but the fact of the matter is you called. Thats it. I'm sure you will agree that under certain circumstances any player can raise with any 2 cards but its the person who calls that must be sure of theirs.
If anything this post might make us "fish" think a little more about our play.
nuff said.

azzeretti

musician wrote:

I sometimes wonder why people are unwilling or seem unwilling to learn or improve their game.

On the contrary, I did and have taken what Hector, and others, have said on board. My real issue was the way he went about it, thats all. Like my first post said, I don;t claim to be great player, I am learning and continually reading also. I just need time

ecksor

I think shortstack has hit the nail on the head. Surely, you always want to get called by a hand that's behind you because you're probably going to win. Post up examples of where you were called by worse hands and your hand stood up.

Dave

In the last 2 weeks of live tourney play, I've raised with a good hand, either been put all in by a worse hand, or the other person has gone all in. Now the thing is i've only been playing live tourney for 2 weeks. I know the odds are with me but it's getting annoying at this stage. Nothing seems to hold up.

AKs beaten by AJo
AKo beaten by KJs
KK beaten by AJo
KK beaten by A6o
AQo beaten by AJo

Lafortezza

"Oh no! I think the aquarium is about to break!"

Tackle

Hey, it's a pisser to take a beat like that, but you got a bit too worked up over it. I hardly ever respond if someone busts me out with a bad call. Although if I've been busted out by inferior hands a few games in a row sometimes I do have a go at whoever put me out. I always finish with "keep making those good calls" to which the usual response is "loser".