im new to paganism etc.and need hands on help

sugardaddy

hi i just started researching witchcraft, wicca,and paganism on the
internet and this type of religion appeals to me .i want to establish the differences between wicca paganism and witchcraft.i feel as though i cant learn it on my own from books or that and i was wondering if there is like a group based in the dublin area that could help educate me on paganism etc.i saw that a woman named barbara lee had a course in dublin but that was in april and at that time i didnt even know that witchcraft and paganism even existed for real i thouht it was all just in films and make believe.can anyone help me get the education and hands on approach that i need

Nevyn

Hi,

well you just missed out on attending Féile Draíochta
Which was on today and there was a very large gathering or withces, wiccans, druids and pagans.

Yes it is real, yes there are people out there.

I would also sugest you have a look for a pagan moot or disscussion group near you http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=255432
there are also email lists for questions and dicussions.

http://www.witchvox.com/
and do read the infromation in the stickied threads in this forum.

All wiccans are witches and pagans.
not all witches are wiccan or pagan for that matter.
You can follow the wiccan path but to be wiccan you have to be initated
into a wiccan tradition.

Ms Barbra Lee's classes are highly recamended as an introduction in wiccan and witchcraft but not for paganism in general.

Good luck with your seeking.

Thaed

Sapien

Thaed wrote:

well you just missed out on attending Féile Draíochta
Which was on today and there was a very large gathering or withces, wiccans, druids and pagans.

Coinciding with the Pride march? That wasn't very smart. I'm sure there was a sizeable demographic that felt torn over how to spend its time today.

Nevyn

That event was booked and orgainsed as far back as 6 mnths ago and with
concenses with in the pagan community. Yes there were other events on
included a seminar on the ulster cycle legends in maynooth but such is life.

sugardaddy

thanks thaed i really appreciate that bit of info and if u have any more id like to hear it.i would quite like to do the b.lee course but i emailed her twice and never got a reply.if u hear of any thing like that or other events id like to hear from u.thanks a lot

Talliesin

Sapien wrote:

Coinciding with the Pride march? That wasn't very smart. I'm sure there was a sizeable demographic that felt torn over how to spend its time today.

You can't cater for every cross-over demographic, it was hard enough not clashing with too much in the Pagan community alone. Besides you could make it to early talks at Féile Draíochta, go on the march, come back for the end of the stalls and the entertainment, head off to the George for some more drinks and have a pretty damn good day.

Now Boards Beers being on the same day as Féile Draíochta and Pride is another matter...

sugardaddy wrote:

i would quite like to do the b.lee course but i emailed her twice and never got a reply.if u hear of any thing like that or other events id like to hear from u.thanks a lot

Well, she was pretty busy with Féile Draíochta of late, so I wouldn't have expected a prompt reply from a mail to her, and I know her. I know she is planning to do another one next year (after promising herself she'd retire she's been pestered into it ) but most likely won't be taking bookings until we're into 2006. Checking out the moots is a good idea in the meantime.

Sapien

Talliesin wrote:

You can't cater for every cross-over demographic, it was hard enough not clashing with too much in the Pagan community alone. Besides you could make it to early talks at Féile Draíochta, go on the march, come back for the end of the stalls and the entertainment, head off to the George for some more drinks and have a pretty damn good day.

Quite. I was pretty much joking.

Talliesin

Well, I would have liked to have seen them on different days myself.

Hmm_Messiah

All wiccans are witches and pagans.
not all witches are wiccan or pagan for that matter.
You can follow the wiccan path but to be wiccan you have to be initated
into a wiccan tradition

Maybe its the nonconformist in me, or my experience online knowing people of many paths in the old msn religion and orchard rooms, but I would of though to "be wiccan" you simply have to choose to be, as in make a " fundamental stance" as we termed it in the days i studied theology.

while initiations etc have important roles, I'd of though the were still essentially the trappings; my understanding of Magick, or Evolutionary Immanence as I termed it for all the people who need to name things, is as somethign vibrant, vital and organic, that peope naturally belong to if they turn towards it.

to say to be wiccan " you have to..." smacks to me a little too much of to be saved you must be baptised etc.

now I've gone on a real tangent off this thread , sorry. didn't even know there was a pagan forum here

Heading back in the direction of the thread; the difficulties I had when wanting to learn more, practise more was that an important part of Wicca to me was the transfer of energies between people, the connecting of people, and other than my ex, there was no one available to go down that path with

Talliesin

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

Maybe its the nonconformist in me, or my experience online knowing people of many paths in the old msn religion and orchard rooms, but I would of though to "be wiccan" you simply have to choose to be, as in make a " fundamental stance" as we termed it in the days i studied theology.

Here we come across the problem of the word "Wicca" (and it's derivatives).

Wicca was first used on record as a modern word by Gardner. He used the spelling "Wica" which may have been deliberate, or which may have been his spelling which Valiente has described as "eccentric". For that matter he used the term "the Wica" to refer to a particular group of witches, and differentiated the word from "witch". This ties into the debate as to whether Gardner invented, revived, adapted or merely published the details of modern Pagan Witchcraft we have from him.

A few notable facts:

1. Gardner must have been familiar with the spelling "Wicca" as found in Skeats' Etymology. Not only were most half-way well-read people of his generation familiar with that etymological dictionary, but it is cited in Leland's The Gospel of Aradia.
2. Cochrane, Leek, Ryall and other claimants to be survivors of other separate traditions of Witchcraft, Pagan or otherwise, did not use the term "Wicca" or "Wica" except to refer to those traditions (Gardnerian, Alexandrian and a handful of others) that did claim that term.
3. The pronunciation used today is not that of the Old English word of the same spelling, which would be spelt more like "Wicheh" in modern English.

None of which proves much about it's history, but all of which is worth bearing in mind when considering it.

The practice at this time that had the label "Wicca" was initiatory, lineaged, and orthopractic. That is to say, you could only become one of the Wicca by one of the Wicca making you one, and you could only work as the Wicca do by keeping to certain core practices (beliefs are another matter, the Wicca have an orthopraxy, but not much orthodoxy - they do the same rites but have little in the way of core identifying beliefs, of course practicing those rites does make some beliefs more likely than others).

The other claimants to the label "Witch" at the time included both some who practiced an initiatory, lineaged orthopractic tradition, and some that did not. For the most part they had little to say about the Wicca, and most of what they did say wasn't polite.

Now, beginning primarily with Scott Cunningham we have two trends. One is the use of the term "Wicca" to refer to any form of Witchcraft, or at least any form of Pagan Witchcraft. The other is the creation of a form of Pagan Witchcraft that is largely derived from Gardnerian and Alexandrian practice, but which is considerably less orthopractic, sometimes to the extent of being difficult to pin down at all.

This co-option of the term "Wicca" led to a few different responses by both those who would have used the term originally, and those that would not. Some took "Wicca" to mean any kind of Pagan Witchcraft at all, necessitating the term "British Traditional Wicca" (esp. in the US and Canada - confusingly in Britain and Ireland the term "Traditional" is often used for those who claim an initiatory lineage that is neither to Gardner, nor to the group he claimed initiated him) to have a label for what was once "Wicca", whereas some continue to use the term "Wicca" in the original sense.

In the more recent sense the term grew to have a certain marketability, especially for some of Lewellyn's more trashy titles, and the trend continued. Indeed the trend has become increasingly silly, the culmination to my mind being the invention of the word "Witta" by Edain McCoy who claimed it to be an old Irish term for Witch - much as "Wicca" was and Old English term for a (male) Witch; a claim for which the fact that it contains a letter not found in the Irish language is not the sole point of deep stupidity an bare-faced lying. This is much in keeping with the general reputation of the quality of scholarship Lewellyn publications have, which is unfortunate for the occasional poor bastard that gets a good book put out by them.

Myself I tend to use "Wicca" to mean those who are Gardnerian, Alexandrian, or of a few related traditions, and "Witch" to mean those but also other traditions and ecletic practice. I don't argue if someone uses "Wicca" in the more recent sense though, but I do if they claim that that is the only sense, because they are wrong as I have detailed above.

You still have to do more than to just say you are a Pagan Witch to be one, though if you make a commitment to the Gods you may well be held to it (big lesson there - do not commit to the Gods lightly, or to anything for that matter). Clearly it's harder to say just who is and isn't a Witch in this case (one of those "I know it when I see it things"). You don't have to have an elder, a teacher or an initiation either, the Gods can find ways of providing you with what you need though the hard times can be unpleasant enough when you have the support of a teacher and the structure of a tradition. But then, making the further commitment of seeking such a structure has its effects also.

sugardaddy

as i said before im a complete begginner but to do spells why is nessecery to know so much about ancient scottis and celtic folklore?like if u just knew a bit or a few gods and goddeses,would his be enough?or would you have to know all about diffferent gods and goddesses?

Nevyn

sugardaddy wrote:

as i said before im a complete begginner but to do spells why is nessecery to know so much about ancient scottis and celtic folklore?like if u just knew a bit or a few gods and goddeses,would his be enough?or would you have to know all about diffferent gods and goddesses?

Sugardaddy , Paganism is not about spells.
It is a spiritual path with beliefs in the Gods and Guardians what guides us all,
Druid, astru, Wiccan, witch, shaman ECT.

You need to know about the Gods so when you are dealing with Them
or Them with you , you know what to expect, how not to offend and
which God and/or Goddess it is best to call in to aid or advice in a certain matters.

It is best that you learn of the Gods of your own land and who and what they
are. A really good starting places is to read the old legends and thier names
And places and what are associated with them.

sugardaddy

ok thhat seems like good advice thaed thanx.

Rothen

Thaed wrote:

Sugardaddy , Paganism is not about spells.
It is a spiritual path with beliefs in the Gods and Guardians what guides us all,
Druid, astru, Wiccan, witch, shaman ECT.

Perhaps it would be better phrased as not all pagan paths are about spells/magic etc although some are. As my path is nearly all about the magic.

Nevyn

that depends on what it is and just cos it is a path that does not make it
pagan.

Rothen

I believe that is not the case, a path centered around magic still is pagan. (for mine specifically) I talk to the earth and get my power from her...I belive that any magic paths would interact with diety(s) and all would most certainly have pagan rituals etc involved

Talliesin

Rothen wrote:

a path centered around magic still is pagan.

Society of Inner Light? Qaballah? Christianised Qaballah? Tibetan magic?

Rothen wrote:

(for mine specifically)

That well may be, but in general I'd say that magic and Paganism are two things that overlap, neither is identical too or a subset of the other.