Short stack

corblimey

Is there any sort of rule of thumb that you all follow when you're short stacked and deciding whether to try and double up.

Like, how many times the BB you have left versus hole cards you normally wouldn't play. I figure that if you're very shortstacked, the other players on the table will have no problem with calling you, and you won't steal blinds, and unless you've got a big hand, you'll be going out.

On Tuesday night, I was down to 3xBB and went all in with AQs. I was called by a pair of fives and niether of us improved. I think I did the right thing, but perhaps 3xBB was too small not to be called? BB was 400 at the time. I hadn't had a decent hand all night, and was being eaten alive by blinds and flop calls. I was on SB, so perhaps I should've waited for another orbit?

NickyOD

corblimey wrote:

On Tuesday night, I was down to 3xBB and went all in with AQs. I was called by a pair of fives and niether of us improved. I think I did the right thing, but perhaps 3xBB was too small not to be called? BB was 400 at the time. I hadn't had a decent hand all night, and was being eaten alive by blinds and flop calls. I was on SB, so perhaps I should've waited for another orbit?

I usually never push until I get Aces or maybe with kings if I'm really short like 1.5BBs. You should have waited another orbit.

Rodge

NickyOD wrote:

I usually never push until I get Aces or maybe with kings if I'm really short like 1.5BBs. You should have waited another orbit.

You're better off waiting until you are all in on the big blind.

Joking aside, my rule of thumb for MTT's is get into the money and as is my usual scenario if I have less than 10 BB's to push with any two pretty cards and hope for a double through.

3 BB's is an awful state to get yourself in. You double through and you still have only 6 maybe 7 BB's, thats not going to last long.

Dave

The thing is though, if you only have 3 BB's you're probably going to get more than one caller.

Iago

NickyOD wrote:

I usually never push until I get Aces or maybe with kings if I'm really short like 1.5BBs. You should have waited another orbit.

I think if you don't push here then there's no point playing. You say you pushed and got called so nobody raised before you and you're on the SB. I don't see anything wrong with you pushing here however...

...you shouldn't have let yourself get into that position in the first place. Once you get down to 10BB's or less you should be looking to push with any reasonable hand, particularily from the button or blinds when there are only 1-2 limpers.

I don't see any justification for waiting another orbit, you have 7-8 hands max and the odds are that you won't get a better hand than AQs and you'll be forced to push from the bb with rubbish and hope.

NickyOD

Sorry I forgot the sarcasm tags.

10BBs is the general rule. I think this can vary from between 7 and 12 BBs depending on how close you are to the money line, what your table image is, how loose/tight the table is playing, what state the other shorties are in and how likely you are to get a call from the players who's blinds you're pushing into

3 BBs is beyond critical. You shoudl never get that low. I wouldn't even look at my cards before pushing there. If its folded to you in the SB with 6BBs or less you are usually getting better EV from pushing with 92o than calling someone elses all in with 88 and that point. It is quite literally push with crap time. I can only assume you got yourself into that stae by limping in too much and bleeding away your stack.

There is an excellent and very detailed thread on short stack play here which is well worth bookmarking

Iago

sorry Nicky, I thought you were probably being sarcastic, but had to be sure for the ops benefit!

mewso

A good discussion would be on what people like to push on. Most would opt for the AX but I much prefer connectors. The Ax is so often likely to be up against it with any caller.
Also sign of the times on this board when if like me you thought this thread was about Mike

NickyOD

musician wrote:

A good discussion would be on what people like to push on. Most would opt for the AX but I much prefer connectors. The Ax is so often likely to be up against it with any caller.
Also sign of the times on this board when if like me you thought this thread was about Mike

Yes it would. Check this out.

"You are in EP with 10 BBs (Button -4) with 6 people behind you, all of whom are very tight and will only call you with A-K, A-Q, A-A, K-K, Q-Q, and J-J. You have A-Jo. An opponent will get one of these 5.4% of time time, and (once again ignoring repeats) you will get called 28.3% of the time by an opponent. You win% against this hand range when called is 25.6%.

EV = .717(300) + .283*.256(2200) + .283*.744(-1900)
EV = -39.37, or an average loss of more than an eighth of a big blind. Here, you have a negative expected value even though each individual opponent will rarely call, and you have Ace-Face. An important note is that holding T-9s would make this move have a positive EV of almost one quarter a BB (31.73 chips)!!"

roryc

I don't usually worry about it till im getting below 10x BB. I start thinking about a double up at this stage but still wont push with crap. Ill wait untill im around 7xBB before I start pushing with connectors and other average hands. Connecters do hold up more than you would expect, one your not up against an overpair. Id prefer to move all in on 910s than A4 in that situation. You cant let yourself go below 5xBB cos then you lose the chance to rob blinds as you could with 7BB+. The big stacks will probably call anything below 6 or 7BB.

This only applies in big tourneys though, over 50 people. I wouldn't use the same method if there was only 20-40 people in a tourney. I'd go round and have a look at how bad a state im in compared to the other stacks, and/or how close to the money am I.

Hitman Actual

A quote I heard some time ago was "A good rule of thumb regarding pushing is to do it before a double-through is of no use to you".

There's no point allowing yourself to get so low that you need to double-up several times to get back into the game. I'd say that how you play in the middle stages of a tournament is crucial to whether you end up badly short-stacked or not (excluding the bad beats which often put you there!).

I generally follow the 10BB rule. Depending on the game, I might let it go a bit lower, but usually 10BB is about right. I agree with Musician and Nicky on the weak Ace thingy... I'm much happier with anything that is less likely to be dominated, or a big dog, which is a reason that I hate pushing with low pairs as well. I like medium connectors!

corblimey

Well, I was getting nothing but rags all night, so I was being bled away by blinds and the odd call before flop just to see if I could improve. I was down to about 12BBs when I got a bad beat about 3 hands before the situation in my op. Hence the extremely short stack.

It seems to be the consensus that around 10BB would be the minimum, and I would assume that position comes into in a big way. If it's been folded around to you, you're only to steal the blinds if you go all in with 10BB, I'd say, most of the time. So, having the right amount of chips, the right cards and the right position, all at the same time. It's no wonder I lose so many tournies

The Snapper

"You are in EP with 10 BBs (Button -4) with 6 people behind you, all of whom are very tight and will only call you with A-K, A-Q, A-A, K-K, Q-Q, and J-J. You have A-Jo. An opponent will get one of these 5.4% of time time, and (once again ignoring repeats) you will get called 28.3% of the time by an opponent. You win% against this hand range when called is 25.6%.

EV = .717(300) + .283*.256(2200) + .283*.744(-1900)
EV = -39.37, or an average loss of more than an eighth of a big blind. Here, you have a negative expected value even though each individual opponent will rarely call, and you have Ace-Face. An important note is that holding T-9s would make this move have a positive EV of almost one quarter a BB (31.73 chips)!!"

[/QUOTE]
I read similar posts all the time and understand the theories but,
Can you give a brief outline of how to work this out especially were the numbers come from / represent . ie; .717(300).
oh and please be tolerant of a maths dinosaur.

Thanks

NickyOD

EV = .717(300) + .283*.256(2200) + .283*.744(-1900)


For the example above.

EV = ((% chance you will not be called)X(chips you will win when you are not called)

+

((% of the time you will be called)X(% chance you will win if called))X(chips you accumulate if you win when called)

+

((% of the time you will be called)X(% chance you will lose when called))X(the chips you will lose when called)


This however does not take into account the payout structure and whether or not we are ITM already or on the bubble line here. There are a lot of situations where you should fold in a tournament even with a decent expectation of having the best hand.

Hectorjelly

Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
MTT Table 2 3628337-69 Holdem No Limit 200/400
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : Hand Start.
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : Seat 1 : H Jiblomey has $7,260
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : Seat 2 : fishhook8 has $14,100
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : Seat 3 : gigantes has $18,965
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : Seat 4 : kenyo13 has $6,880
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : Seat 6 : hottentot has $6,330
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : Seat 8 : seeone has $560
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : Seat 9 : hectorjelly has $2,065
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : hectorjelly is the dealer.
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : H Jiblomey posted small blind.
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : fishhook8 posted big blind.
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : Game [69] started with 7 players.
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jun 21 02:10:20] : Seat 9 : hectorjelly has Jd 6h
[Jun 21 02:10:25] : gigantes folded.
[Jun 21 02:10:27] : kenyo13 folded.
[Jun 21 02:10:30] : hottentot folded.
[Jun 21 02:10:33] : seeone folded.
[Jun 21 02:10:35] : hectorjelly called 400 and raised 1,665 and is All-in
[Jun 21 02:10:38] : H Jiblomey called 1,865
[Jun 21 02:10:38] : Stakes: 200/400 Current level: 6 Level up in: 7 min. Break in: 46 min. Players : 19
[Jun 21 02:10:43] : fishhook8 folded.
[Jun 21 02:10:43] : Showdown!
[Jun 21 02:10:43] : Seat 9 : hectorjelly has Jd 6h
[Jun 21 02:10:45] : Seat 1 : H Jiblomey has Kd Kc
[Jun 21 02:10:45] : Seat 9 : hectorjelly has Jd 6h
[Jun 21 02:10:54] : Board cards [Qc 8c Td Ad 9c]
[Jun 21 02:10:54] : Seat 9 : hectorjelly has Jd 6h
[Jun 21 02:10:54] : hectorjelly has Straight QJT98
[Jun 21 02:10:54] : Seat 1 : H Jiblomey has Kd Kc
[Jun 21 02:10:54] : H Jiblomey has Pair: Kings
[Jun 21 02:10:54] : hectorjelly wins 4,530 with Straight QJT98
[Jun 21 02:10:58] : Stakes: 200/400 Current level: 6 Level up in: 6 min. Break in: 45 min. Players : 19
[Jun 21 02:11:03] : hectorjelly : justice
[Jun 21 02:11:04] : Hand is over.
[Jun 21 02:11:04] :
[Jun 21 02:11:04] : Stakes: 200/400 Current level: 6 Level up in: 6 min. Break in: 45 min. Players : 19

Rodge

but you still have only 11 BB's. How long before you went all in again?

DapperGent

Hectorjelly wrote:

[Jun 21 02:11:03] : hectorjelly : justice

lol

Dave

Well looking at the chip count at the table you could buy some pots in LP. But then again people will have seen him going all in with J6o and may call.

Hectorjelly

I had been desperately trying to find a spot to push, thats how I had gotten so shortstacked. There were players on my right who between them who were open raising every hand, and I never had enough chips to get any of them to fold. Thats why I was so desperate, I had decided to push the next time it was folded to me no matter what position I was in or my cards.

I knew I wouldnt have much Folding Equity the next time I pushed but luckily I got Kings twice the next orbit and went on to finish 4th I think.